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Default Avernum 3:Ruined World - Announced

September 14th, 2017, 14:36
There must be some 2d/3d graphic artists with time on there hands who could contribute to Jeffs games. I mean if emulators can recruit passionate people to code for no money…maybe get students.

Dreams are free. I would love to see Geneforge looking like Baldurs Gate.
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September 14th, 2017, 14:43
Doesn't sound like he wants to do much custom art for his next game/engine, he's more interested in buying/using pre-existing stuff… He said in a blog post a while back that the working title for his next game (meaning the one after Avernum 3) is "Unity Asset Store: The Game"
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September 14th, 2017, 15:26
Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
Doesn't sound like he wants to do much custom art for his next game/engine, he's more interested in buying/using pre-existing stuff… He said in a blog post a while back that the working title for his next game (meaning the one after Avernum 3) is "Unity Asset Store: The Game"
*sob*
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September 14th, 2017, 15:34
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
I mean, it's entirely subjective, but there's not some huge plethora of turn-based RPGs like Jeff's games out there.
No, there aren't a huge plethora of great games like Jeff's out there. (thank God) But these days there are a huge plethora of great turn-based games out there.
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September 14th, 2017, 16:04
Originally Posted by Kylex View Post
It's strange to see that so many people mind the graphics.

I love Spiderweb games especially for dungeon and encounter design - I don't know any other game that comes even close in this regard.
Exploration is a very strong point too and all of the other aspects support the strengths in a way to best enjoy them.
I often do not complete computer games - except Spiderweb games, for me they are just perfect.
Too me it's not even so much the graphics, as it is the reused stories. Having the exact same graphics(ok slight upgrade) is just icing on the cake. It's like he is taking year old pound cake out of the freezer smaking some old icing on it and calling it a new game come get it.
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September 14th, 2017, 16:20
Yeah that's where I am too. I don't care about the graphics, they aren't great, but they are functional. I care because I love Jeff's initial stories, but then he repeats them over and over in his sequels and then again when he remakes a game.

The repeat of the mechanics is also something I don't like. Usually when a game has a sequel they change everything a lot, have completely different skills, spells, a few brand new mechanics. But Jeff barely changes anything. I wouldn't mind the idea of playing through Avernum 3 again so much if there was going to be a new set of skills, spells, or character development system to explore. But it's very unlikely that there will be. Even most of the magic items you find will probably be the same as his previous games.

Originally Posted by rune_74 View Post
Too me it's not even so much the graphics, as it is the reused stories. Having the exact same graphics(ok slight upgrade) is just icing on the cake. It's like he is taking year old pound cake out of the freezer smaking some old icing on it and calling it a new game come get it.
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September 14th, 2017, 16:29
I don't mind low production values, I mind obviously inferior work.

If I look at something like Eschalon, it's pretty clear that the budget wasn't big - and that they probably didn't have more than one or two artists working on it.

But it was done with skill and care for the result. It has charm and things look appropriate - and don't clash with the UI, for instance. That's important to me.

Smaller issues like font aliasing and color clashes can really ruin my immersion and remind me that someone who either didn't care or didn't know what they were doing made this game that I'm supposed to engage with.

When I look at a Spiderweb game - I see a lack of talent when it comes to the UI, game assets, animations and especially the portraits.

When you don't really know what you're doing, I think it's appropriate to approach your work differently. You can either hire a dedicated artist - or you can pay a freelancer to do the art, but in the right way and with your instructions.

I'm not sure if the visuals in Spiderweb games are done by hand or consist of mostly bought assets - but they don't "come together" and they remind me of some of the earlier Java RPGs.

Even if it's "just the surface" - I think it speaks volumes about the lack of passion and dedication that goes into making these games.

Now, I'm not saying it's not hard work - and that Jeff doesn't care. I just don't think his heart is truly in it. Maybe it never was - or maybe he gave up after a while. But no one is going to convince me he's doing all he can.

I know some people don't agree - and that first impressions and graphics don't matter at all, but I think that's a very odd position.

But, to each his own.
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September 14th, 2017, 16:31
Jeff's only real new games are the Avadon games. I haven't played the Avernum series until the remakes, so I guess I'm an audience for his games. The Avadon games have enjoyed some mechanics. At least Avadon 2 saw a new class and a rework on class balancing. It appears to me that Jeff is at least as much business man as artist. He made the current engine for Avadon 1, and thought he could save a lot of time and make a good amount of money converting Avernum 1-3 into the new engine in a lot less time than making a new game. I think there is a reason Jeff has survived as an indie developer so long, and that is because he is as much a business man as he is an artist.
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September 14th, 2017, 21:36
Originally Posted by forgottenlor View Post
I think there is a reason Jeff has survived as an indie developer so long, and that is because he is as much a business man as he is an artist.
He's not much of a risk taker for a business man. It seems he keeps costs low. Like a struggling artist who goes without food to buy paint; you'll all see the value in his work after he dies.

I'm sure he could have negotiated some sort of big money deal and sold his soul for it. Maybe he has too much integrity to sell out? Too much vision to lose control?

I think, in much the same way tabletop D&D players can imagine a scene based off a paper map, some miniatures and a handful of dice, the players of Spiderweb games are gifted with a little more imagination and creativity than those who require swathes of superficial eye-candy to feel immersed.

But, as they say, each to his own.
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September 14th, 2017, 22:06
Seems half of his fanbase are to be found in this thread. Good to see some camaraderie among them.
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September 15th, 2017, 16:48
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
I'm sure he could have negotiated some sort of big money deal and sold his soul for it. Maybe he has too much integrity to sell out? Too much vision to lose control?
I'm not trying to run you down, but this must be the funniest thing I have ever read on RPGWatch.

I'm pretty sure Jeff Vogel's problem is not that he has "too much vision".
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September 15th, 2017, 16:49
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
He's not much of a risk taker for a business man. It seems he keeps costs low. Like a struggling artist who goes without food to buy paint; you'll all see the value in his work after he dies.
He's not that kind. He's the kind that chugs along and actually is able to make a living from their employment, not the kind that takes big risks and maybe has to declare bankruptcy.
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September 15th, 2017, 17:06
Originally Posted by forgottenlor View Post
He's not that kind. He's the kind that chugs along and actually is able to make a living from their employment, not the kind that takes big risks and maybe has to declare bankruptcy.
Couldn't bear Avadon's ugly GUI and the whole game is repulsive to me. Avernum forever!
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