New hard evidence of female Scandinavian warriors

Caddy · September 11, 2017

There's been a lot of debate back and forth about if the skjaldmær (shieldmaidens) actually existed, and thanks to DNA it looks as if this is indeed the case. Don't try and mess with a viking woman (I was going to post this in the science thread, but there still seems to be debate, on if anthropology is considered a "hard science"):

https://www.rt.com/news/402521-sweden-viking-warrior-woman

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.23308/full

Lucky Day · September 11, 2017

As one commenter pointed out, they couldn't tell by her skeleton? They had to check her DNA?

Caddy · September 11, 2017

Lucky Day said:
As one commenter pointed out, they couldn't tell by her skeleton? They had to check her DNA?

Although there's common traits for both sexes in regards to skeletal remains (the most obvious being pelvis, and to a lesser extent, the skull), they are usually given a "most likely scale" (thanks to my nephew pointing this out, who is studying anthropology at the moment) on their possible sex. Which means it's a VERY educated guess, but can still be a guess. This combined with lack of evidence in abundance makes for lots of doubt.

Wisdom · September 12, 2017

DNA "science" is equal to an educated guess when dealing with anything less than a perfect known sample of reasonable freshness.
Not disputing their findings, just saying that historical "dna" science is about as useful as accurate carbon dating.
"We got a sample, we couldn't find a strong Y chromosome, therefore female"
Its about as cutting edge as dna is able to do right now but its still plenty of assumption.
Same with "origin markers".
"Well, its not 100% asian or african, so therefore european/scandenavian"

Caddy · September 12, 2017

Wisdom said:
"We got a sample, we couldn't find a strong Y chromosome, therefore female"

That's only if it hasn't been sequenced. In this case it was, which means the results is binary. Double Xs along the 23rd pair is sugar and spice and everything nice. But as you said with origin markers, it's a lot more complicated.

Alrik Fassbauer · September 12, 2017

Criticism will most likely come from men who believe that it must not be that women might have been warriors - because that would undermine manliness ... What's a man useful for if the women he tries to protect and uses this protection as a sign/scale to show other males how strong and manly he is, doesn't need any protection at all ?

Caddy · September 12, 2017

Alrik Fassbauer said:
that would undermine manliness

Here's some undermining of manliness with a flying armbar:

Ripper · September 12, 2017

Nice bit of choreography. For female warrior demonstrations, would recommend CCTV footage from the wrong parts of Glasgow on a Saturday night.

Caddy · September 12, 2017

Ripper said:
Nice bit of choreography. For female warrior demonstrations, would recommend CCTV footage from the wrong parts of Glasgow on a Saturday night.

For practical application, I refer to Rose:

yllaettaevaet · September 12, 2017

Related. She exists and she is awesome :blush:

:

(Lagertha of 'Vikings' TV Show)

vurt · September 12, 2017

Women are fierce. have a whole team of them in the right period and i bet they'll beat the living shit out of even the most amanita drugged up male vikings

Wisdom · September 12, 2017

Caddy said:
That's only if it hasn't been sequenced. In this case it was, which means the results is binary. Double Xs along the 23rd pair is sugar and spice and everything nice. But as you said with origin markers, it's a lot more complicated.

Sweet

glad they had a decent sample.
Your explanation is crazy oversimplified but I looked at their whitepaper.
Statistically its likely a female but they admit the origin markers are an educated guess.
I did find it interesting they set out to prove it was female with select origin rather than setting out to find out what sex and origin it was. Two different things in science world.

daveyd · September 12, 2017

Cool. Perhaps I'll make an entirely female party for my next play through of Expeditions: Viking.

lostforever · September 13, 2017

So you can use DNA to determine someone gender?

azarhal · September 13, 2017

lostforever said:
So you can use DNA to determine someone gender?

I can't tell if this is sarcasm, ignorance about DNA or if you are being very clever.

For people who don't understand, please read the wiki entry about gender and learn how you have been misusing the term.

RPGFool · September 13, 2017

azarhal said:
I can't tell if this is sarcasm, ignorance about DNA or if you are being very clever.

For people who don't understand, please read the wiki entry about gender and learn how you have been misusing the term.

Wikipedia is not the definitive source on word meaning and grammar.. Indeed, the Oxford dictionary states that gender has been used to denote sex since the 14th century and that the words sex and gender are often used interchangeably even though gender more often refers to cultural and social differences.

Simply put, the difference between the words gender and sex is not a hard and fast rule even if the more nuanced usage of gender might be in reference to cultural and social differences.

And back on topic, DNA testing can be used to identify sex.

__

Wisdom · September 13, 2017

Hard science is unrepentant with data and facts. Its the pseudoscience and psychoscience that muddies the water.
An example would be brain development.
Hard science still classifies levels of diminished capacity as idiots, imbeciels and morons (there are more but those are the most common lowest levels). You say any of those words outside a true science environment and people flip out. It doesnt change the classification or the actual capacity of the subject regardless of what they name it.

Caddy · September 13, 2017

Well to make it really simple, DNA testing can show if they were most likely born with a penis or vagina.

pibbur who · September 13, 2017

Wisdom said:
...Hard science still classifies levels of diminished capacity as idiots, imbeciels and morons (there are more but those are the most common lowest levels). You say any of those words outside a true science environment and people flip out. It doesnt change the classification or the actual capacity of the subject regardless of what they name it.

That may have something to do with those words frequently (mostly) being used as insults, don't you think?

And actually, the terms have mostly been replaced by more precise descriptions.

pibbur

NewDArt · September 13, 2017

Why do we care about this?

I assume we all agree that slaughtering people during a conquest for more land is a bad thing, regardless of gender, right?

New hard evidence of female Scandinavian warriors

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