The Authentic RPG and its Tragic Demise @ Critical Gamer

I hope so. But let us not forget that Radon Labs went downhill because of not-so-good sales - and because of the non-existent marketing of a publisher which rather believes in Adventure games and not in role-playing games.

Plus the fact that even right now no-one seems to be willing to publish Drakensang 2 in retail in NA.


Indies have in fact 2 problems, imho :

- the graphics are not as great as … let's take Drakensang, for example

- Indies rarely get retail shelf space. Instead, they must rely on digital downloads. This applies only to the portion of ll gamers worldwide who are actually willing to do digital downloads alone. Their number is constantly growing, but there is still a number who want something physical in their shelves (like me), although their number might be more and more going down, too.


The future, as I see it, is this : FPS and RPG will kind of fuse.
and then, after a while, gamers will become bored and ask "what's the difference" ? There'll be a "back to the roots" movement one day. Although one cannot say when.

Indies rarely get retail shlf space. Instead, they must rely on digital downloads. This applies only to the portion of ll gamers worldwide who are actually willing to do digital downloads alone.

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Digital download already outpaced PC retail sales for a number of publishers (like Valve) a year back, it is expected to outpace retail period very soon IIRC. Digital download has the future and is not that significant a setback for indie developers. In fact, the growth of digital download is the very reason the indie scene is flourishing.

The future, as I see it, is this : FPS and RPG will kind of fuse.
and then, after a while, gamers will become bored and ask "what's the difference" ?There'll be a "back to the roots" movement one day. Although one cannot say when.

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I doubt it, but honestly, eh. FPS-RPG is a fine genre. I love a good FPS-RPG. Keep making 'em, I say. Just don't forget about the rest.

Brother None said:

In fact, the growth of digital download is the very reason the indie scene is flourishing.

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Yes, but I also think that right now - the borders might go away in the future - this is also a country thing.

I really don't know, but looking at the German markets I often think that Germans are still too conservative for digital downloads only. The U.S. - as I perceive it - is imho much, much more far ahead in this aspect.

But … in fact - I realöly can't tell, because I just don't kow German digital download numbers - or any of any country.


Plus, there is another aspect pople often forget : On the countryside, in rathr rural areas, briadband isn't that easily accessible or cheap. Here in Germany, the broadband supply is TERRIBLE in the areas far way from major towns !

Everything broadband-related is imho rather a towns-thing. As I perceive it.

I like older crpgs because they are genuinely different in all ways. As long as we have variety all is good.

The main show stopper for me in crpgs is the "Groundhog Day".

Hardcore Rpg`s are a niche genre. Ok, 20-15 years ago it was different - but it was a different era. Look at adventure/sim/strategy games, they all were kings back then and are skulking in shadows now.

Seems to me 3D changed things the most - suddenly all the kids that were never that interested in calculating THAC0 and such, had arcade quality games in their homes. Consoles got beefed up. Then came behemots like GTA/COD/ME…games that make money comparable to film blockbusters, all the big cats sniffed that c.r.e.a.m and it`s not an enthusiast-driven business anymore. (Also: Wii)

So it`s down to independents to cater to this niche audience. Great stuff! But there`s evidence that if you make, let`s call it semi-hardcore, AAA Rpg it can sell too.
Vide Dragon Age/new Fallouts. But, the suits decide that lots of money is not enough, they have to earn MORE than lots. Hence Dragon Age 2. That`s what I find most annoying in this NWO.

zadokAllen said:

But, the suits decide that lots of money is not enough, they have to earn MORE than lots. Hence Dragon Age 2. That`s what I find most annoying in this NWO.

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I have no problem with sequels, it's the amount of DLC that's beginning to get on my nerves. It's insulting to me that companies are starting to announce DLC months before they've even released the core game, and also using it as bait to preorder.

JDR13 said:

I have no problem with sequels

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No, me neither, I meant "hence STREAMLINED Dragon Age 2". Sorry.

They really could`ve kept this one "as is". It would still sell buckloads - it`s only now everyone`s telling us how bad the original one was, despite being hailed "RPG of the decade" and such.

So they would have earned their loot and still kept some respect of the oldschoolers in one clean sweep. Or, they could at least make the Hard/Nightmare with all the floaters and other hardcore trappings, and Easy/Normal for more casual gamer. Ok, it maybe would cost few bucks more but not that much.

Indie games are great, but they can't replace pioneering or well-funded projects that take the genre forward. The vast majority of indie titles, including the best ones, are nostalgic throwbacks to the "golden age", but they don't take anything forward. They're just redoing what used to work, and upgrading the visuals slightly.

I'm not sure why most indies are so creatively weak - but that's been my experience so far. At least within the CRPG genre. It seems to me they're as desperate to please the old-school enthusiast, as the big boys are to please the mainstream.

The problem is that AAA productions are not advancing gameplay either, as they're only innovating in ways to appeal to the majority. Some of that appeals to enthusiasts - and we all like better productions values - but most of it is about making the gameplay accessible and streamlined. It's not about adding complexity, challenge, or depth.

But, I think it will come eventually. It's only a matter of time before the mainstream gamer will start to demand more than endless explosions in a linear corridor - and I consider it inevitable that we will see some true steps forward in the next 5 years or so.

Not that accessible gameplay and neatly packaged "experiences" won't be the most profitable route, but there should be room for true gameplay innovation once the casual crowd starts demanding more.

Also, as much as I loathe how developers like Bethesda and Bioware spend their resources during development, I do appreciate the steps forward they're taking in terms of the spectacle. The spectacle is always nice, and once they manage to combine it with an actual step forward in game design - it should be quite the experience for this old jaded gamer.

I'm actually hopeful that games like Deus Ex 3 or Skyrim can, potentially, add something new to their respective genres (beyond more spectacle) - though they'll clearly only do it if it doesn't scare the casuals away. But, I think we'll see a few nice touches of innovation here and there.

DArtagnan said:

Indie games are great, but they can't replace pioneering or well-funded projects that take the genre forward. The vast majority of indie titles, including the best ones, are nostalgic throwbacks to the "golden age", but they don't take anything forward. They're just redoing what used to work, and upgrading the visuals slightly.

I'm not sure why most indies are so creatively weak - but that's been my experience so far. At least within the CRPG genre. It seems to me they're as desperate to please the old-school enthusiast, as the big boys are to please the mainstream.

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There are plenty of experimental indies out there. It's sorta nice to see these type of weird games again. For the most part they annoy the hell out of me, but at least they're trying something different. They did this back in the 80's too when they were trying to figure out what kinds of games to offer. You got all types of games from Pac-Man to Burger Time to Phantasia to Spy vs. Spy. Lots of innovation going on to see what worked and what didn't work. Which is sorta what those indies are doing again.

But I know you're talking about RPG indies. Now here is where I disagree with you completely. I don't want to see innovative gameplay. I want to see perfected gameplay. In AOD they are not trying to reinvent the wheel by offering branching storylines, complex turnbased system, etc., but they are trying to perfect or improve upon it. From what I have read and played they have succeeded.

Another example would be Frayed Knights. That is a marriage between games like Wizardry with games like Quest for Glory. He also isn't trying to reinvent the wheel, but he sure as hell is trying to improve it. Which is exactly what I want to see.

There are a few games that try innovation. Armageddon Empires, Solium Infernum and even Aztaka are prime examples of those. Two of those did very well and unfortunately Aztaka isn't doing so well. If you really want to see some good innovation then play Armageddon Empires or Solium Infernum. It takes awhile to get the hang of, but it is a very rewarding experience. Aztaka tried to marry sidescrollers with rpgs which isn't a bad idea since games like Golden Axe were huge in the arcades. I think if he had gotten that game onto X-Box Live he may have sold a lot more units, but having a sidescroller only for the PC is a difficult sell.

There is one more example that you may not know about. I just posted a game called Darkwind. Now that game has taken the turnbased system to the next level. You may like the new way to play or you may not, but it's different that for sure

skavenhorde said:

But I know you're talking about RPG indies. Now here is where I disagree with you completely. I don't want to see innovative gameplay. I want to see perfected gameplay.

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Well, I`d like to see both But I know what you mean.

It`s true there`s lot`s of interesting things going on in non-Rpg indie sector. But looking at our patch, I agree with DArtagnan - it`s stuck in a rut. Which, on one hand is a good thing - looking at AOD for example. Not very adventurous though…

(Frayed Knights/Cthulhu and such have this post-ironic angle to them which I find annoying. But thats me, and these look like solid games)

Armageddon/Solium look pretty interesting - but more like turn based strategy at it`s core. As for Aztaka, it`s only innovative if we forget about Japan where side scrolling RPG`s has been done before.

Darkwind, on the other hand - an intriguing prospect

I don't want innovation for the sake of innovation. I like the word evolution better, actually.

I can't claim to have tried all indie CRPGs - but I've certainly tried quite a few.

Most of them don't seem to really tread new ground, and I think they should. I don't mind them "perfecting" succesful formulas of old, but the problem is that they don't have the financial backing to make the old sufficiently new.

I know some people would be happy replaying Fallout in a new skin, over and over, but I tire of deja vu easily. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of old CRPGs that I have yet to play - because the genre has moved on - and I along with it.

Sometimes I do get a craving for the good old days, but I find that I have a hard time forgiving new games for their lack of polish.

To make it short, I'm a really demanding player. I basically want medium to high production values, true gameplay evolution, and an engaging storyline.

That's almost impossible today, with the market being as it is. Well, not so much because of the market - but because of the perception of it, and the mindset of the people backing games financially. Too few risks are taken, and too much emphasis on maximum profit - instead of merely profit.

So we have to choose between AAA level mainstream games and technically inferior products that are mostly about retreading old ground. Except for the very rare quality midlevel production, like Risen or Drakensang. Personally, I think Drakensang is utterly boring - but it's still a quality title.

I know there are exceptions for the indies, even within the CRPG genre. Something like Din's Curse is doing new things in its respective subgenre, but it's still SEVERELY limited by the small team and the low production values.

Some of the cute indie stuff like Braid or Minecraft is really fantastic in terms of creative innovation, but they just don't seem to work for me. I don't want cute toys or experiments - I want solid designs that understand why the old was good - and how to carry that forward. That's something I almost never see today.

Bioshock had that opportunity - and it could have expanded on what System Shock did, but they blew it by going mainstream completely - and went backwards instead. Maybe that's what the audience wanted, but I'm not so sure.

Deus Ex 3 has that opportunity now, and we'll see if they can actually expand on what Deus Ex started. I have a feeling it might, and I have a feeling the audience is ready for that kind of gameplay evolution - but we'll just have to wait and see.

Did you read the interview with Rebecca Heinman aka Burger over at Gamasutra? It's an interesting glimpse into the world of developers and publishers. Especially page 6.

Unfortunately I don't think we will ever see much evolution/innovation/something different from the world of AAAs. It costs too much to have a huge flop.

I like how she put it. No one wants to get fired and if someone green lights an obscure title and it flops then they're gone. Of course, if it is a hit then they're a rock star. If I was someone with the power to green light games I would prefer to do my gambling in Vegas where the stakes are much lower and all I would lose is a grand here or there, not my job.

Also she goes onto explain that if a game flops and it's a sequel or based off of a known license then the suits can cast blame on the series or the license. With an unknown or unusual gameplay features then that same suit will have to take all the blame. It's a little pathetic that they have to have something to blame, but that's the way these companies run. Hell that's how most businesses run. Deep down I think that is part of the reason the world is a mess, but that is another story for another day.

People tend to forget, myself included, that this is first and foremost a business. People's jobs are at stake. With so much riding on each and every game the most sensible thing is to go with something you know. It's not good for us who want something more or different from them, but they're the ones who are idiotic enough to dump millions into these games so it's their call. That's another topic that I have a problem with. They need to scale back the amount of money they invest in these games. Expectations might not be so high if they didn't dump insane amounts of money into just one game. Then they could be a little more experimental with what's released.

This brings me to Dragon Age 2. Dragon Age was a good attempt to bring more to the masses and it worked. It wasn't a hardcore RPG, but it was decent enough and it won all kinds of awards and people loved it. Even with all that praise and love they still want to make the game dumber. There was no risk in keeping the majority of the game the same or improving certain areas, but nope Bioware and EA decided that even Dragon Age was too sophisticated for us.

End of rant…..

Basically I think your being far too harsh on indies or haven't played enough of them. They are doing new things all the time. If it doesn't happen to appeal to you then seriously you are being a little too demanding. Indies are where we will see all kinds of innovation. Whether it's Minecraft, Darwinia, Aurora, Frayed Knights, Dead State, World of Goo, Cthulhu Saves the World, AOD, Solium Infernum, Armageddon Empires, Depths of Peril (Din's Curse isn't that different from any other Diablo clone out there, but Depths of Peril was something different and awesome), Eschalon, Devil Whiskey, Omega Syndrome, Darkwind, Dwarf Fortress, Rogue Survivor, Avernum, Geneforge (now come on that is one fun game that is definitely different ), Nethergate, Aztaka, Knights of the Chalice, I really could keep going on and on if you want There are a lot of different games out there and a lot of good ones as well as a lot of not so good ones, but like in the 80's people are throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

There is also something that might give you a glimmer of hope for rpg indies. The amount of rpg indies that are in production are growing. With each passing year I'm seeing more and more of them being made. It's not a deluge, but it is a slow trickle that's becoming stronger.

There was a time when Shareware ruled the indie world and Jeff Vogel was the only place you could find a decent rpg indie, but not so anymore. It may take them longer to make and none of them will have the production values of a AAA game, but they are getting better and there are more of them being made with each year. Some of them will do something different and some of them will just try to improve upon what we already know as rpgs.

A couple good indie sites that might interest you (other than Rampant Coyote's of course) are Indie Games The Weblog and Indie Game Magazine.

Sorry about the huge post. I know most of you are going to look at this and think there is no freaking way I'm reading all that.

skavenhorde said:

Also she goes onto explain that if a game flops and it's a sequel or based off of a known license then the suits can cast blame on the series or the license. With an unknown or unusual gameplay features then that same suit will have to take all the blame.

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Burger tells it like it is My Numero Uno when it comes to industry figures, after this interview.

Videogames were always a business and always jobs were at risk. Remember Strike Commander/Daikatana sagas? That did not stop certain companies to thrive on originality. Bullfrog, Shiny, DMA Design, off top of my head.

It`s since games became blockbusters and, like you say, too much money started swirling around, that everybody`s scared to make a false move. (And the irony is it was DMA responsible for first of these mega selling games). Besides, after series of buyouts in which creative studios were swallowed by big players, there`s hardly any independents (in the old meaning of the word) left.

zadokAllen said:

Burger tells it like it is My Numero Uno when it comes to industry figures, after this interview.

Videogames were always a business and always jobs were at risk. Remember Strike Commander/Daikatana sagas? That did not stop certain companies to thrive on originality. Bullfrog, Shiny, DMA Design, off top of my head.

It`s since games became blockbusters and, like you say, too much money started swirling around, that everybody`s scared to make a false move. (And the irony is it was DMA responsible for first of these mega selling games). Besides, after series of buyouts in which creative studios were swallowed by big players, there`s hardly any independents (in the old meaning of the word) left.

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Couldn't write better.
We are living in the K gaming era. K for Kinect and K for Kotick.

I don't get the cynicism concerning Kinect. I've always wanted to use actions to play a game. It doesn't mean it has to be the only option out there though. You'll still have mouse/keyboard driven games. It's not an either or sorta thing.

Back to the topic. Rampany Coyote aka Jay Barnsen talks about indie gaming. A much more interesting read than mine from someone actually in the business.

skavenhorde said:

I don't get the cynicism concerning Kinect. I've always wanted to use actions to play a game. It doesn't mean it has to be the only option out there though. You'll still have mouse/keyboard driven games. It's not an either or sorta thing.

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It's not cynicism. It can help to "consolize" even more the PC gaming. I can imagine what will happen in a title with both interfaces.

That is exactly what cynicism is

It hasn't even done that yet, but you imagine it will.

skavenhorde said:

That is exactly what cynicism is

It hasn't even done that yet, but you imagine it will.

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You know, that's just a small step.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62wj8eJ0FHw&feature=player_embedded#!

There`s another word for that, which I prefer = skepticism. Based on experience with Wii, where shovelware is the word, one has right to be skeptical about Kinect.

On the other hand I don`t really see anything wrong with it. It will have it`s audience and specific games. Probably few titles appealing to more hardcore gamer too. Doubt any dual-control possibility really - it`s either this or that.

Most interesting at the moment are the hacks - have you seen that dude grinding in WoW with Kinect? (Edit: you did

Von Paulus said:

You know, that's just a small step…..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62wj8eJ0FHw&feature=player_embedded#!

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I think I love you

My ultimate nerd dream come true. Thanks for that. I had no idea there were companies doing this already. I knew about the hacks, but not this.

They said any off the shelf game. It would be perfect for The Witcher. Not so much for WoW or NWN 2 where you could have dozens of different options, but for games like that then it would be perfect.