Dark Souls II - Two More Videos

hmm can't remember that one from the interview but that does not mean much.
Trial and error gameplay and death as part of the learning experience was pretty par for the course in the challenging games of old (japanese or not) and is the core of a game that is essentially very old school despite some very interesting novel ideas and approach to design...

The thing about DS was how OPAQUE it was. Turns out, if you summon a NPC helper to help you kill, say the Gaping Dragon, it makes the fight HARDER.

There are almost as many things about DS that I dislike about it as I like about it. Frustration and overall boredom of it took over for me and I quit by the famous Anor Londo archers. Probably half way through, right?

I kept reading that the areas and overall design and fun of it went downhill. Like many games, it was front loaded with better stuff than it could hold out with all the way through. Though I can't confirm that. Still had a lot of fun with it.

You have actually missed some of the best stuff in the game imho (The DLC, the painted world, the Archives among other things).

Nope, couldn't possibly agree that the game goes downhill after that point (probably a bit less than halfway). It probably gets quite a bit better before starting to get stale actually. The difficulty gets progressively less pronounced to the point that its no longer really challenging (because you should be getting better at it and its mechanics more obvious) but that is about it...

I can't imagine getting bored by the time I hit the archers tbh (*) The game had its hooks pretty deep by then

(* I was done with that part at around 30 hours on run #1 and 22-23 on run #2 iirc very reasonable if you consider the out of order way and general fooling around I like to do in this game)

Yeah, if anything, the game really opens up after the Londo archers. Once you get the Lordvessel, you can teleport to any bonfire.

Like JonNik said, the DLC, the Painted World, and the Archives are all just great. In fact, the whole game is great. I love it all. It and Demon's Souls are easily two of my top games of the generation.

Sounds like I have a lot to look forward to. I'm currently in the depths, damn basilisks.

Heheheh. Well then I suck. It took me waaaaaaay more than 30 hours to get to those archers.

sakichop said:

Sounds like I have a lot to look forward to. I'm currently in the depths, damn basilisks.

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I hope you have come to the conclusion that you have to stay away from those things. Got yourself cursed ? Don't!

Ovenall said:

Heheheh. Well then I suck. It took me waaaaaaay more than 30 hours to get to those archers.

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It is actually exactly as you said. One of the main factors of difficulty in this game is its opaqueness and the fact that if you fail to grasp how some of its mechanics work you could be in for some trouble. I often see people say: "Yeah I know what I have to do and what strategy to implement but this game is hard! and my reflexes are not good" while imho they just have not wrapped their heads around exactly how the game works and they are approaching it as a run of the mill action RPG (leaving aside people with actual hand-eye coordination problems but I imagine those being the exception rather than the rule). This though is a game that rewards caution, observation and intense focus while playing (so it really fits my temperament generally speaking).

I can totally understand and accept that this is not everybody's idea of fun and entertainment. But for people enjoying the trial and error gameplay and loving Atmosphere and the great sense of Discovery that permeates it, its more than worth it to stick with this game beyond your own personal gauntlet (for some its Blighttown for others its Smough and Ormstein, a bit after those Archers. For me I guess it was doing the Catacombs and Tombs of the Giants before getting the Lordvessel, actually straight after ringing the first bell, but I can't really complain because noone made me go down there that early )

I agree there are some great areas after Anor Londo, but I also agree that all in all, the part before is the better one. Tomb of the Giants quickly gets a bit dull. Not because of the darkness, just the area itself. It's just not that exciting. And Lost Izalith is known to have been rushed. Much more fun that the Tomb, but the Bed of Chaos... Laziest boss ever. But Miyazaki has said so himself, he's not happy with that design. They had something else planned, but didn't have time to implement it.

Steinawarjar said:

I agree there are some great areas after Anor Londo, but I also agree that all in all, the part before is the better one. Tomb of the Giants quickly gets a bit dull. Not because of the darkness, just the area itself. It's just not that exciting. And Lost Izalith is known to have been rushed. Much more fun that the Tomb, but the Bed of Chaos… Laziest boss ever. But Miyazaki has said so himself, he's not happy with that design. They had something else planned, but didn't have time to implement it.

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The DLC areas are all great. The Royal Forest, the Township, and the Abyss are all neat in their own ways. The bosses, in particular, are amazing. Artorias, Kalameet, and Manus are clearly some of the best bosses in the game.

But, yeah, other than the DLC, the Painted World, and the Archives, I guess the better areas come before. Still, that's plenty of great stuff remaining.

Guess you need to define the before/after a bit this being a very open game?

would a logical progression (that I never follow ) be:

Undead Burg -> Parish -> 1st Bell -> Depths -> Blighttown -> 2nd Bell -> Seths -> Anor Londo ?

So Someone Stopping at the Archers Has not done: The cathedral, The Painted World, The Archives, The DLC, The Catacombs and Tombs of the Giants (Which are great the first time you do them), New Londo (and possibly Darkroot and Sif), Demon ruins, Lost Izalith, Ash Lake and the Hollow ?

Because if you are saying before and meaning "geographically" then most of the game is open before Anor Londo and you could conceivably have done it before then (other than the bosses hidden behind the orange Fog). An I usually do too

My feeling is that Ovenall has actually done the dotted line I described above (+ a bit of Darkroot I imagine ?) So I'll definitely stand by what I said

I could only agree that lost Izalith was perhaps the least interesting area (but still better than what you'll find on a lot of other RPGs) and that was partly due to unimpressive enemies too…

Yes, I guess "before" and "after" aren't the most precise use of words.

@ Killias2
I agree. The DLC area is awesome. I don't know how many times I've done co-op in that area. Never get's boring. The Painted World is an intriguing place and the Archives are pretty good as well. No doubt about that.

As to before and after…

@JonNik
Actually, I follow pretty much that progression, except that I add Darkroot Garden at some point.

I mostly do The Catacombs, Tomb of the Giants and New Londo after Anor Londo, so I thought of them as after when I wrote it. I tend to forget about The Hollow and Ash Lake though. Darkroot and Sif I think of as before. Well, perhaps not Sif, I guess it depends on my build. On my last playthough I tried a faith build and ended up doing him after. I don't know when you're meant to take him though. So basically, when I think of after, I think of what you specifically need to do to gather the Lord Souls.

I guess I like the part before the most because it has more of a natural progression to it - you do this to do that, and move things forward. The part after, when you have played the game a few times starts to feel a bit more like routine. As if the Lord Souls is just something you have to gather before you face Gwyn. Not sure how to explain it. I like several of the areas, I'm rather talking about how the game is structured. I do like New Londo though. And Tomb of the Giants is definitely tense the first time you do it, so in that respect it's a great addition to the experience. But after a while I get tired of the stone walls.