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July 1st, 2018, 11:24
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Look at Sword Coast Legends. That was D&D. I think we can all agree that simply being based on a popular system isn't enough to magically make people care enough.

Bad example. Sword Coast Legends was criticized heavily for being D&D in name only, and its dungeon master mode still has an active online community a year after being taken off stores. If they fixed the loading screens it might of saved the game.

If this game really is a faithful adaption of the Pathfinder rules (or as much as RTwP can be), then it would be completely foolish to not have a full modding toolset. It would elevate the game, making it the definitive Pathfinder experience like Neverwinter Nights was to D&D.

Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Yep but its true to say I don't see any expansions or mods I personally want to play for Tyranny, Pillars,or Wasteland 2. Though Shadowrun had a few good modules.
Shadowrun worked for the same reason Pathfinder would if it had a modding toolkit. It's based on a very popular tabletop franchise with rich lore and a dedicated fanbase.

Pathfinder is also much bigger than Shadowrun. It's the second best selling tabletop RPG in the world after Dungeons & Dragons. It would have even more potential.
Last edited by Copper Coin; July 1st, 2018 at 11:59.
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July 1st, 2018, 15:07
Bad example. Sword Coast Legends was criticized heavily for being D&D in name only, and its dungeon master mode still has an active online community a year after being taken off stores. If they fixed the loading screens it might of saved the game.
Yeah, after release.

Before release, we had at least one deluded person on this site telling everyone how it would save the D&D CRPG scene - and how it would become such a fantastic successor to NWN.

Lesson being that we don't always know what's going to happen, and things don't necessarily turn out the way we hope they will.

Again, developers don't have the luxury of inventing facts to suit their own personal wishes.

It's cool that you have this fantasy of modding tools being a set-in-stone wise decision - it's just that you have no real argument to support it.

You're guessing it would definitely compensate the developers without having the slightest idea how much work it would mean for them, or how well the game will end up doing.

The thing is, you could be right. We don't know. But you're the only one claiming to know the unknowable with certainty, which is hard to take seriously

I think we can all agree that modding tools are great for games that we like playing, but that doesn't really make them a worthwhile investment of time and resources for the developers by themselves.

They have to consider the bigger picture - and a random guy on a niche forum called Silver Coin doesn't exactly represent a sure thing.

Anyway, arguing about things we have no way of establishing as true or not is a waste of time.

Let's see what happens with the game and then we can talk about how modding would affect its future.
Last edited by Darth Tagnan; July 1st, 2018 at 15:19.
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July 1st, 2018, 19:50
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
It's cool that you have this fantasy of modding tools being a set-in-stone wise decision - it's just that you have no real argument to support it.
It's not pure speculation. Pathfinder is the second most popular tabletop franchise in the world after Dungeons & Dragons. There's already historical precedent in Neverwinter Nights, which had a terrible base game but great modding support.

You don't understand the Pathfinder community if you doubt there would be a vibrant modding community dedicated towards creating original Pathfinder content.

Let's see what happens with the game and then we can talk about how modding would affect its future.
You're missing the point. It's irrelevant how good the base game is, if there are mods.

A CRPG set in the Pathfinder world using the Pathfinder system is guaranteed to have a large modding community generating Pathfinder related content. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand Pathfinder.
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July 1st, 2018, 19:53
I understand that you're telling yourself you know for a fact how big and significant the modding community would be for a game that's not released and which no one has played in its finished form - based on your perception of the popularity of the PnP setting and rule system.

It's like saying any Tolkien CRPG will automatically have a great modding scene because a lot of people enjoy the books.

Meaning, I can't really take you or this exchange seriously - since you clearly don't operate within the realm of reason.

If you had been a reasonable person, you would have owned up to the obvious truth that you don't actually know - and this is all based on conjecture and hopes.

That's not you, however

Anyway, have fun.

Thank you for helping me with a little ERP, though. It's good practice to leave threads alone when no closure is plausible!
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July 1st, 2018, 20:04
I never stated what I'm saying is a fact, but it is an educated assumption based on historical precedent. It's you that is debating in bad faith by not acknowledging this.

This game uses the Pathfinder system and assets from the Pathfinder universe. It would be short-sighted to assume that there wouldn't be a vibrant modding community for the first ever Pathfinder CRPG, which is the world's second largest P&P franchise.
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July 1st, 2018, 20:14
I never stated what I'm saying is a fact, but it is an educated assumption based on historical precedent. It's you that is debating in bad faith by not acknowledging this.
This, from you:

A CRPG set in the Pathfinder world using the Pathfinder system is guaranteed to have a large modding community generating Pathfinder related content. If you don't understand this, then you don't understand Pathfinder.

Do you understand what a guarentee is? You're essentially stating it as a fact.

Making you a liar - as well as a person outside the realm of reason.

Can you point out who is making the assumption that there wouldn't be a vibrant modding community?

I hope you understand that what people are arguing is that we can't assume it as a fact, and therefore it would be a risk to spend resources on modding tools - especially because a vibrant modding scene doesn't even necessarily translate into more money for the developers in the first place.

Keeping a game alive and having it sell a lot of copies are two different things.
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July 1st, 2018, 20:27
I misspoke by calling it a guarantee, but it's still an educated assumption. There's little reason to believe there wouldn't be a large modding community dedicated towards creating Pathfinder content, using the Pathfinder system, in the Pathfinder universe.

Pathfinder will sell a decent amount of copies because it's Pathfinder. The second largest tabletop RPG franchise after Dungeons & Dragons. Every hardcore Pathfinder fan will play it at some point if it's good, because that's what fans do when a good RPG is created based on their fandom. If the base game isn't good, then it can still be considered good by the power of mods alone (e.g Neverwinter Nights).
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July 1st, 2018, 20:30
Pathfinder will sell a decent amount of copies because it's Pathfinder.
The second largest tabletop RPG franchise after Dungeons & Dragons.
Sword Coast Legends.
Dungeons & Dragons: Daggerdale
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July 1st, 2018, 20:38
False equivalency. Sword Coast legends…

1. Was D&D in name only
2. Was not the first D&D videogame
3. Did not have modding support (the DM mode doesn't count)

Pathfinder: Kingmaker would be the first and only Pathfinder CRPG, which gives it a unique advantage by having full modding support. The same advantage Neverwinter Nights had by being the first 3rd edition D&D videogame.
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July 1st, 2018, 20:48
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
False equivalency. Sword Coast legends…

1. Was D&D in name only
2. Was not the first D&D videogame
3. Did not have modding support (the DM mode doesn't count)

Pathfinder: Kingmaker would be the first and only Pathfinder CRPG, which gives it a unique advantage by having full modding support. The same advantage Neverwinter Nights had by being the first 3rd edition D&D videogame.
So, you're saying the first D&D game in the world sold more copies than any game following it?

Because that makes zero sense to me.

No, a popular rule system will obviously help sell some copies - but there's no guarentee that it will be enough - and we have plenty of examples of that happening.

Neverwinter Nights wasn't the first 3rd Edition video game. Pool of Radiance 2 came before that one.

Sword Coast Legends was a bad implementation of D&D, we can agree about that - but people didn't know that BEFORE release.

You're claiming this:

Pathfinder will sell a decent amount of copies because it's Pathfinder.

Now, you're adding all sorts of fine print and none of it makes any sense.

I'm afraid you're not helping your case much.

I've wasted enough time on this.
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July 1st, 2018, 21:03
I'm saying that the first 3rd edition D&D videogame sold a lot of copies because it had modding support. Not because the base game was any good by itself.

Owlcat should take a lesson from history and understand the importance modding support can have towards driving the sales of the world's first ever Pathfinder CRPG.

Sword Coast Legends was a bad implementation of D&D, we can agree about that - but people didn't know that BEFORE release.
You're claiming this:
Pathfinder will sell a decent amount of copies because it's Pathfinder.
Now, you're adding all sorts of fine print and none of it makes any sense.
We know plenty of information about this game. It's as much of a faithful implementation of the Pathfinder system as it can be for RTwP. That's why it would be wise to have modding tools so that Pathfinder fans could make their own adventures.
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July 1st, 2018, 21:05
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
I've wasted enough time on this.
Fair enough. I enjoyed discussing this with you, nonetheless.
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July 1st, 2018, 21:06
@purpleblob

Since you've played it, how does it compare to other - similar - games?

It looks pretty good based on videos, though it also feels a little barebones in terms of interaction and somewhat slow and clunky in terms of movement.

There's little doubt I'll be getting it, but I'm curious.
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July 1st, 2018, 21:06
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
Fair enough. I enjoyed discussing this with you, nonetheless.
Me too
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July 1st, 2018, 21:33
Originally Posted by Silver Coin View Post
I never stated what I'm saying is a fact, but it is an educated assumption based on historical precedent. It's you that is debating in bad faith by not acknowledging this.

This game uses the Pathfinder system and assets from the Pathfinder universe. It would be short-sighted to assume that there wouldn't be a vibrant modding community for the first ever Pathfinder CRPG, which is the world's second largest P&P franchise.
I'll call up Owlcat, Deep Silver and Paizo and let them know, that you know their business model better than they do. They can go ahead and start getting a business loan, uproot a bunch of families and hire new people with promises of guaranteed success based on your posts! After all, no gaming company has ever declared bankruptcy after creating a game that had all the "formula" for success. Then after I call them, i'm going to go play me some Kingdoms Of Alamur.
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July 1st, 2018, 22:13
@Darth Tagnan :

I enjoyed Kingmaker far more than other similar games released recently, easily one of my favourite now. I posted my impressions earlier here:

https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/show…8&postcount=33

I would like to respond in more detail but short on time at the moment (heading to work soon)!!!
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July 1st, 2018, 22:31
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
@Darth Tagnan :

I enjoyed Kingmaker far more than other similar games released recently, easily one of my favourite now. I posted my impressions earlier here:

https://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/show…8&postcount=33

I would like to respond in more detail but short on time at the moment (heading to work soon)!!!
Thanks

Sounds good.
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July 1st, 2018, 22:40
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
I'll call up Owlcat, Deep Silver and Paizo and let them know, that you know their business model better than they do. They can go ahead and start getting a business loan, uproot a bunch of families and hire new people with promises of guaranteed success based on your posts! After all, no gaming company has ever declared bankruptcy after creating a game that had all the "formula" for success. Then after I call them, i'm going to go play me some Kingdoms Of Alamur.

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July 1st, 2018, 22:45
I just played for most of the afternoon today. Decided to start the second part.

Overall a fun game with many positives I like. Since there has been so much positive on it lately I will say a few things that annoy me that I hope are fixed.

Fatigue and Movement - I don't mind balancing strength and not carrying tons of loot but at the moment BETA is seems bugged when it comes to weight limits and movement. At one point, even with rest, I ended up literally dropping all armor on my characters just so I could move again without being at a crawl (and the default movement rate is way too slow .. painfully so). I just kept weapons, potions, and a few magic armor items I had collected. I like weight and inventory management but its unreasonable in this game because you can carry so little before you are slowed. Since you travel a lot you are always getting fatigued which then lowers your strength .. which then slows you down. Its a viscous circle at times. I suspect this will be tweaked though.

Artwork - I do like the graphics but at the same time its a bit on the "young and pretty" side of animation for me. Mixed feelings with the almost cute cartoon like feeling. Sometimes I like it and other times not. Not a game breaker though by any means. You get used to it. But I prefer, for example, the style of POE2.

Depth - There is a lot to do but at the same time it seems to lack some depth to interactions and characters and events. Hard to explain this one though. Could be related to the artwork or perhaps I am too used to different style. I felt things were too quickly resolved and lacking in lore/depth on some of the quests. Overall it is nice but I was hoping for a little more umpf.

That being said I love the character creation and leveling, the party management and interface, the companions are interesting (but would like them deeper), the ruling your own land so far is a blast but I only started that today so only experienced about 1 hour of playtime as a ruler.

With bug fixes and tweaks I would certainly give this game a high score. For me, personally, not as high as Pillars though will have to play more to see if that holds true. I have 20 hours into Kingmaker at this point while I have 181 hours combined for POE1 and 2.

Tentative 7-8 score right now. If the kingdom building remains as good as it seems then a solid 8 (as long as fatigue/movement related issues are tweaked).
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July 1st, 2018, 22:58
I don't think there's anything that makes Unity hard to mod for, exactly. What makes a game moddable is making the assets and data reasonably accessible - using formats and structures that modders can easily get things out of and in to, rather than locking it all up in proprietary archives.

If you do that, you make basic modding possible, which is the sort of thing we see for Witcher 3, for example. The tricky bit comes if you want to release proper Creation Kit style tools, for creating serious new game content. If you've used a commercial engine like Unity, your creation tools will be modified versions of their editor, which you are not free to release. That's the problem that Warhorse ran into with Cryengine and their promised modkit.

Sometimes a deal can be done, though, as Ark Survival did with a modified version of the Unreal editor for their modders.

I do think it would be a good move for Kingmaker, if they have some success and could invest in it later on.
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