Drakensang Drakensang gamespot review a sad day for hardcore RPGers

I read fully the review, almost. And I don't feel it is neither targeted to a wide public nor made from a lazy guy who didn't play the game and copy another review.

I agree it's quite possible he didn't play the full game but it seems he played quite a lot of it:

• The first clue is in the good points he quotes: "Tremendous amount of gameplay for the $30 price" and "Large, deep fantasy gameworld". I don't remember to have seen that so often in the few big sites reviews of the game.
• The second clue are the snapshot, made with a character heroe I don't remember to have see in other series of snapshots and those snapshots go quite far, at least up to Moonbridge.

Ha also brings many good points I don't remember to have seen often in the big sites reviews of the game:

• Sharp visuals packed with little details that bring the story to life.
• Documentation and in-game tips are plentiful
• Serious role-players will love this attention to detail
• A lot of attention has been paid to fine details that establish a feeling of venturing into real places.
• Larger-than-life RPG epics like Drakensang are few and far between these days.
• a fairly captivating adventure that delivers most of what old-time RPG fans want and expect.

It's quite a lot of serious good points that he has collected in his review.

Now about the negative points:

• A long complain about the controls. This guy isn't so wrong, he didn't catch the right control scheme which isn't so common in similar games, CRPG or shooters. I'm surprised it plays so long the game without to find the right tricks, but if he does I'm not surprised by his hire. Myself I never played before a game with such controls and played at least 10 hours, perhaps more without to find by myself how manage it. Only the forum gave me the right tricks. Could be stupid but tht can happen.
• A long complain about rules and character class management complexity. Again frankly I got the exact same feeling during the first hours, the point is mainly coming from the confrontation with a totally new system, and with many little original design choice. If it has been a blockbuster target he should have a much deeper in game documentation and tutorial to ge over this. It's unfair but also it's a part of its additional fun.
• About dialogs he quote: "excessive shouting and exaggerated hand gestures." Well he is right, admit it. The point is that it's not a real flaw, more a chosen style. But he could have dislike it. It's funny that in my language version this has been tuned down a bit for the vocals but after to have play the English version I felt the English choice was better because voices was matching better the animation, same exaggeration and well done if you admit the approach.
• About story he wrotes: "compiled from so many fantasy novels, movies, and games...stereotypical hero who starts off as a nobody...." Well he isn't wrong and brings some solid arguments in the review and later point that: "Just about the only touch of originality comes from the main plotline's focus on dragons, which at one time ruled the world before a scaly civil war." Clearly this reviewer isn't an idiot and didn't play fully the game but quite a lot.

Now there's the ugly title for the review, that doesn't match at all the review content, I wouldn't be surprised that he didn't wrote this title.

And the conclusion is a little rude but match the review and ends with a very positive note: "Larger-than-life RPG epics like Drakensang are few and far between these days. The story and quests are generic, and the character management is unnecessarily complex, but this is still a fairly captivating adventure that delivers most of what old-time RPG fans want and expect."

Ok after to have play the full game, to have get some advices about controls and for being close to be a hardcore CRPG fan, I have some different point of view and feel he is been unfair by not have quote some important qualities like the quality of many companion dialogs, or the interesting fights design. Or to not have quote some important weakness as some wrong choices about opponent diversity in some places. Still quite a solid review from a serious guy even if not a CRPG fan.

I got the feeling the reviewer is not that well versed in playing many if any of the older D&D games thus his lack of insite caused his negative experience in character building. The game does assume some level of knowledge about stats and building your character which would have taken pages and pages to explain.

Do you really feel Dark eyes rules similar to D&D rules? Myself I see them as deeply different. I don't think the game assumes players already know Dark eyes rules because there's many in game information.

But as I read in another review, for such a new system for most players, it should has a little tutorial encyclopedia, including at least a collection of the general advices you get as tip when the tutorial option is activated.

Other than that there isn't much to do, the system has some depth and complexity, like complicate rules for each spells instead of having a global system, so in all cases it takes time to get used to it.

But I agree that the reviewer was probably lacking a bit of more experience in CRPG, nothing sure, but quite possible.

Too many rules

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LOL

Compared to D&D rules, especially AD&D (Baldur's Gate), TDE rules are much(!) easier, but equally comprehensive.

- There's no saving throw.
- No different elemental magic resistance (just MR)
- No need to check tables to get attribute bonuses
- One or two formulas really (ex. (attr1+attr2+attr3)/5 )
- Only two dices(!)
- 1 attack per round and it doesn't change
- And list goes on...

It's just that The Dark Eye rules are NOT familiar for most of us, but playing DS at the first time, I felt like playing Baldur's Gate at the first time. I felt confused, but curious.

Dhruin said:

Desslock went on to PC Gamer. As far as I know (and he does call through here from time to time), he isn't writing much these days. Keep in mind he has a day job (lawyer).

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A lawyer? That explains his odd defensive posts on the Codex.

I'm already missing his writing in PCGamer, compared to the shallow hacks they hire out now.

Last couple PC Gamers I havent seen Desslock around, that was the final straw, I didnt do my renewal this time. Ive been a subscriber for like a decade, the magazine has just gotten thinner and thinner and more packed w/ ads - it just isnt something that I look forward to anymore. They arent giving me any kind of a break on the subscription price as it's wittled down more and more, so screw them. I can get everything I need online.

Gamespot however, I still like. Ive been a subscriber for just as long, and I'll keep my subscription going indefinitely. It's a pretty vast resource of information and archived, fast downloads for just about every game, and I dont care what anyone says - in my opinion they have a lot of good reviews. Ive played lots of games theyve reviewed, and while I dont agree w/ everything, Ive came away agreeing w/ a lot of em. As far as Drakensang review goes, they gave it a 7 or "good" score - you guys are acting like they called it utter trash or something. A "sad day" over that review? Pleeeeze

He basically saying it's for the dedicated RPG fans who are used to (and indeed like) the quirky and complicated rpgs, not just anyone who wants to drop into a AAA-style easy action rpg w/ one skill tree and a class, launch the game and go.

Well, there is a hiatus among TDE fans about the complexity of the rules.

The most of all - from both sides - agree that the amount of complexity reached in the 4th edition will most likely scare "newcomers" away. Especially beginners need a much, much more lighter system, almost everyone agrees.

Me, I'm a member of that faction complaining that the 4th and 4.1 editions have become far too complex. At the RPC there was a discuussion culminating just in this question.

Even one of Ulisses, the current holders of the TDE license told this example I have read myself from the official Ulisses forums:

Upon asking "what should I buy to learn TDE", one was replied with: "Buy the basic hardcover book."

Now, at least one in that forum wrote something like that: "No, that's rubbish. He should instead buy the Ways of the Sword, Ways of the Gods, Ways of the Heroes, Ways of the Magic books ..." Well, that's 4-5 books for approx. 30 Euros each. FOR A BEGINNER ???

Now that's a sign, I thought, of that hiatus: There is the faction of the rules-lovers, and there's the faction of those who believe the TDE rules have become too complex.

Within that discussion I mentioned my thought that this reminds me of "Fanboyism". The ones who love their complex rules and want the rule system to grow rather into the direction of simulation - thus growing maybe even more complex - are heavily defending everything the way it is now, and will - at least in the forums - thwart (right word) all tries to offer less complex rules for beginners.

The one from Ulisses, who mentioned that example from above also told the audience how many angry replies and remarks he had seen which were directed at a special beginner's bookled especially designed to equip beginners with a light-weight TDE4 system, sort of. He told the audience that fans had written in the forums how much rubbish that booklet was, not good for TDE players at all, that this was simply a waste of money ... The fans just didn't see the problems pure beginners might have, because they are in the TDE rules for so long, up to 20 years or so (rather extremes), but often 10 years at least.

Right now, there's a similar discussion going on in the official Drakensang forums about the Prequel. Some want ALL rules to be implemented. And that is - from a technical standpoint - imho almost impossible or at least would need 3 more years.
They just don't see any difficulties in implementing the technics, but instead they just demand the rules to be implemented.

And believe me, complete with all of the above mentioned "Ways of the ..." rules supplements, there are MANY, many more rules lurking around ...


These discussions are the reason why I had the idea if separating the "rules engine" from the graphics engine. I hope that once a developer will manage to build a such a separation, so that the "rules engine" can be switched. A light system or a complex system ? Okay, as long as all needed animations are there.

This would perhaps even llow to use entirely different rule sets with the same animations ! (A)D&D, for example. Or any other "rules engine" to which the available game animations fit.

NWN already managed to separate the engine from the content, so to say. The next step imho would be to separate the engine completely from the content.
But I fear that only huge firms with lots of money and lots of research time will be able to manage this - and then maybe even put a patent on it (I'm relatively surprised that Bioware didn't do this already for NWN).

About the rules complexity I totally agree that this is coming mainly from a new system for most players. In fact the game is close to provide a good in game information. I believe they just did a small error with big consequences, the small information windows that popup when the tutorial is activated appear only once and can't be check anymore, not to mention the high temptation to close them before really read them and later regret. This part should have been polished a bit better and available through a little in game tutorial encyclopedia.

For P&P rules used for a computer game, I feel that a totally wrong approach, what are thinking the guys asking that? The sample question is where is the human master when you play a CRPG? That's enough to make very doubtful such requests.

Alrik Fassbauer said:

Within that discussion I mentioned my thought that this reminds me of "Fanboyism". The ones who love their complex rules and want the rule system to grow rather into the direction of simulation - thus growing maybe even more complex - are heavily defending everything the way it is now, and will - at least in the forums - thwart (right word) all tries to offer less complex rules for beginners.

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Just another sample of how blind and rigid are too many fan, they always don't want change anything as if everything was perfect as it is. With this approach we would still use rock to hunt mammoth.

Dasale said:

Just another sample of how blind and rigid are too many fan, they always don't want change anything as if everything was perfect as it is. With this approach we would still use rock to hunt mammoth.

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Reminds me of the old wisdom that there are two groups you shouldn't listen to if you want to improve your product:
1) Professional critics. It's impossible to satisfy them because their job is criticising.
2) Fans, because they want to maintain the status quo.

Lol critics and fans, the same war, I'm sure the fans will enjoy! Excellent advice for any game designer but I'd temper with only one point, look more closely any interface design feedback.

Grandor Dragon said:

Thanks Dhruin. I always loved his articles.

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Thank you.

Just got on to this. I don't think that's a bad review at all. I don't agree with the complexity comment - the system seems internally consistent and you can just ignore it as far as I can see, and the camera control was very good, apart from the odd time in cramped spaces. Overall though, I think his take was pretty reasonable.