Can we get another turned-based CRPG already? @ B'n'B

zadokAllen said:

Plenty? Hmmm..dunno about that. Looking at adventures, these struggle pretty much too. Strategy? About the level of rpgs I`d say. Can`t think of any other niche audiences…

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I wouldn't say RPG is niche as a genre (Oblivion/Fallout 3/Fable etc).

I meant there's usually 1-2 developers doing, niche "hardcore" games for other genres.

Odd stuff like King's Bounty mentioned here. Or say, the X-series of games. These games aren't AAA but they aren't indies either and have good production values.

So I don't see why it's totally impossible for a developer that is slightly larger than Spiderweb Software to sustain itself. I've heard they sell about 4000 copies a game, and I'm pretty sure it would be possible to sell at least 10 times that with better production values.

DArtagnan said:

Well, all I can say is that making a game of significant scope as a one-person team whilst maintaining a full-time job (and various personal obligations) is pretty ridiculous

I can recommend delving into C# from the getgo - and then use XNA for your game. It really is a lot easier when dealing with the graphics aspect of such a project. It took me a while to move from procedural programming to object-oriented programming - so you can imagine I'm not really a coder. But I manage most things I need to do, somehow.

It helps to set realistic goals, and I think that's probably THE most important aspect.

Might as well make it as easy as possible, because it's a lot of work doing textures and UI art in Photoshop, 3D art in Blender, storyline, quests, actual working code, game system designs (the only thing I'm really interested in), sound, and all those other things…. So, as I said - it'll be a while

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Oh, I would never really dream of making a game for commercial purposes. I would only start such a project to entertain myself, and perhaps others (should it ever be in playable form). Don't worry, I'm not fooling myself about that.

I have indeed looked into C# and XNA. Getting into C# wasn't the biggest hurdle. It's quite a pleasant language to program in and there are plenty of resources about it. I have a decent grasp of the language and OO programming in general. However, while using XNA has been quite interesting as well (I can see how it can facilitate game programming quite a lot), I have had some serious issues finding decent resources/tutorials/guides/etc. for absolute XNA beginners. So I kind of got stuck there eventually.

Anyway, I got a lot of spare time on my hands the next month, and I'm thinking about diving into some research YET AGAIN. But I think it'll always remain a dream.

TheGameSquid said:

Oh, I would never really dream of making a game for commercial purposes. I would only start such a project to entertain myself, and perhaps others (should it ever be in playable form). Don't worry, I'm not fooling myself about that.

I have indeed looked into C# and XNA. Getting into C# wasn't the biggest hurdle. It's quite a pleasant language to program in and there are plenty of resources about it. I have a decent grasp of the language and OO programming in general. However, while using XNA has been quite interesting as well (I can see how it can facilitate game programming quite a lot), I have had some serious issues finding decent resources/tutorials/guides/etc. for absolute XNA beginners. So I kind of got stuck there eventually.

Anyway, I got a lot of spare time on my hands the next month, and I'm thinking about diving into some research YET AGAIN. But I think it'll always remain a dream.

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It's a dream until you realise it

I'm not doing it for money, as obviously it's not the right place for such a thing.

I do intend to "test the waters" if I ever get it done, and at a level I can feel comfortable with. If enough people are interested, say around 5-10K at minimum - there's the potential of actually staying afloat doing games like this.

But that's just a "side-quest" so far, and the only reason I'd charge for the game, would be to get the hell out of the normal job situation

I was born not to hold a normal job - and it's only for lack of a sensible alternative that I'm part of that whole circus.

TheSisko said:

"Empire: Total War was released on 3 March 2009 to the North American market, and three days later in Europe. The game has become the fastest selling Total War title to date; Empire topped British video game sales charts for all platforms in the week of release, the first PC exclusive title to do so in a year and a half."

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Also, all the classic wargames still have turn based. Look at Slitherine and others, they are still publishing and creating new titles. There's no other way for playing real wargames. It's a niche, but they aren't dead, far from it.
The problem is that AAA publishers want to appeal essentially to the console crowd sitting in couches with a gamepad in hand.

Maybe there are here some folk who like also wargames and remembers to play Panzer General. Slitherine will release this year a new wargame called Panzer Corps, based on the old series. It looks quite promising.
Here's the link for those interested: http://panzer-corps.com/

Von Paulus said:

Also, all the classic wargames still have turn based. Look at Slitherine and others, they are still publishing and creating new titles. There's no other way for playing real wargames. It's a niche, but they aren't dead, far from it.
The problem is that AAA publishers want to appeal essentially to the console crowd sitting in couches with a gamepad in hand. http://panzer-corps.com/

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Yeah, and this is hardly a new thing. There's never been any "AAA" niche-games. It's like asking for a Hollywood-blockbuster niche-film

However, there's always been niche games with decent production values, just as there will always be niche films with good actors and decent production values.

Couchpotato said:

Well good for the indies but you see I prefer quality games and not one that looks like it had a $50,000 budget. Graphics don't make a good game but it helps. Despite the failing of large rpg developers at least I know I will get a good game. Hence why I stated large publishers wont invest in indie games.

PS:I tried the rpg indie games on spiderweb software and didn't enjoy them.

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What it sounds like you're saying is that even a large potentially failing RPG developer is going to get the production values right, and that's why they're earning your money. Correct?

Unfortunately, the large RPG developers of yore did get the production values right, but other aspects of their games, like stability and balance, suffered because they ran out of time to get everything right.

Conversely, I think even small tweaks and touches to the graphics in a small Spiderweb-like game would go a long way. Spiderweb games (at least the Avernum series) are on the money when it comes to gameplay balance, story and mechanics. However, they use very minimal character animations and are just now starting to step up the quality of their style, animations and GUI. I have hopes that Avadon will provide more graphical immersion than their older games. Their more spartan approach to visuals could be a deal breaker for some people used to seeing characters move fluidly from point to point.

I don't think it takes a AAA studio to add this sort of graphical touch. Indies are starting to look really stylized and appealing in their own right thanks to improving developer tech and more streamlined implementation of ideas.

The question is: who's going to merge a smart look with the indie renegade sensibility to bring back smart TB combat design in an RPG?

Whoever pulls it off will reap the rewards…

I know it's not turnbased, but I'd still like to mention that it's very easy to make a Dungeon Master clone, with the help of a program like Alan Berfield's Dungeon Master Java. It's simple to create a new dungeon with the help of the toolset, and if you can make good or at least functional graphics, all the artwork can be replaced with your own. This way, you can make something that feels almost like a new game. But it will of course use the same mechanics as Dungeon Master.

I'm working on such a mod myself, and will release it if I manage to finish it (and it turns out good enough). It's a new 26-level dungeon, with almost completely new artwork. The setting is a mix of high fantasy and lovecraftian horror.

Sure, it would be even more fun to create a completely new game from scratch, but since I'm not a programmer, this mod was the only way for me to make something. Not sure if my level design is any good, but I will try my best.

Nimrod said:

I'm working on such a mod myself, and will release it if I manage to finish it (and it turns out good enough). It's a new 26-level dungeon, with almost completely new artwork. The setting is a mix of high fantasy and lovecraftian horror.

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That sounds really interesting.
Please keep us informed.

Von Paulus said:

That sounds really interesting.
Please keep us informed.

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Yes I will keep you informed . Almost all monster artwork and all player portraits are finished. I need to add art for items and weapons, and more types of walls for the dungeon. And there's a lot of work left with the leveldesign and balancing.

"Because they're addicted to cut scenes of gay elf sex?"

There's clearly a huge market for this sort of thing. Personally, I'd like to see turn-based gay elf sex. The brilliant storytellers at Bioware have yet to plumb the depths of this plentiful, and moist, strategic well. Indies, where are you on this score? You're clearly dropping the ball here...

DArtagnan said:

It's a dream until you realise it

I'm not doing it for money, as obviously it's not the right place for such a thing.

I do intend to "test the waters" if I ever get it done, and at a level I can feel comfortable with. If enough people are interested, say around 5-10K at minimum - there's the potential of actually staying afloat doing games like this.

But that's just a "side-quest" so far, and the only reason I'd charge for the game, would be to get the hell out of the normal job situation

I was born not to hold a normal job - and it's only for lack of a sensible alternative that I'm part of that whole circus.

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Which game are you making?
Every thought about starting a business for your self?

I do love to be able to play a new Might&Magic or Wizardry game. I'm playing Might&Magic 6 again nowadays and thinking what would be to play a game like this with today's graphics. Think about it, same old gameplay with shiny graphics in Gamebyro or Unreal 3 engine. It's not necessary to be a grid based game. Party based first person turn based gameplay would be enough with awesome graphics. It's really a dream for an old nerd like me.

Announcement of Might&Magic 10, Wizardry 9 of Wizards&Warriors 2 would certainly make me excited than any RPGs out there. But my hopes are in vain of course, Might&Magic franchise are now in the dirty hands of Ubisoft which can't make anything other than mediocre spin-offs, Jon Van Caneghem is now working in EA with some Command&Conquer game, Wizardry franchise is in the hands of some Japanese firm which can't think anything other than spiky haired feminine characters, David W. Bradley is nowhere to be found after the disaster called Dungeon Lords.

It's certain that we can't see a game like that in AAA category in the near future. Basic supply-demand equilibrium of economy is against us I'm afraid. So our only hope is indie games. And only game that I can think of is the Frayed Knights which shows some promising. I definitely going to buy this game no matter how good or bad it will be. Then there's Grimorie. But, thinking of it there have always been a Grimorie and always will be it seems.

Pessimeister said:

Bit more personal/offtopic:
Strangely enough, I'm actually trying to get back into Stormfront Studio's abomination - Ruins of Myth Drannor. Initially when I'd first played it (back in 2002 or so) I stopped about half way through because of the sheer monotony, lack of variety and weak writing when compared to Baldur's Gate. There just wasn't enough to do outside of the combat to keep it going.
However, with better hardware, the speed mod and a lengthy varied cRPG soundtrack playlist - I've installed it again and are trying to persist in seeing it through this time, as I do miss that classic party and turn based gameplay alot.

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I totally agree with you. I miss TB RPGs so much that even the mediocre or flawed games of the past (Wizards&Warriors, Pool of Radiance 2 and even Gorasul) are now like gems for me.

Dhruin said:

If you expect AAA production, well, that will never happen.

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"Never", eh? That's a long time. Do you consider King's Bounty and the Civ games to be AAA? Because they are turn-based, and if a major company can make a very profitable non-RPG turn-based game, I don't think it's wise to say no major company will ever make a turn-based RPG.

I don't really get the mental disconnect here. People (I mean here, today in the 21st century) like turn-based games. People like RPG's. Saying no one is ever going to put them together (again) is unsupportable.

Dhruin said:

Your point is diluted by your examples…

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Lol not sure why I got so much confused between TB and non TB. Let makes it more simple, what are the last A TB WRPG and what was their success? I see only commercial failures.

On strategy part I feel it's rather different than RPG, the golden age of RTS seems in the back, hence the relative disappointment of SC2 sells. At some points PC games was shooters and RTS, now RTS have almost vanished from AAA releases, there is now a place for TB strategy games making a come back. People that are bored by TB are action players and not really fans of Strategy games. It's perhaps subjective but being fan of strategy games and not like TB is a non sense.

For RPG it's quite different. When RPG was a lot plenty complicate long and difficult fights then TB was a perfect match. But elements that grown, adventure, immersion, story, voice acting and movies mimic, interactive movie, much less focus on fights ie much less focus on the potentially strategy element of RPG (the option is action), much shorter fights, ton more dialogs, and so on. All of that don't match well with TB, that's probably the main reason there's no more AAA RPG.

You seem to be getting too hung up on the "AAA" thing. There isn't even an exact definition of what's an AAA game and what isn't.

I believe the King's Bounty series has done quite well. Is that recent enough for you?

Tragos said:

I guess all turn-based games will sooner or later die out and for a very good reason : they are all boring.

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Like Adventure games (LucasArts, Sierra) also nearly died out because they are not action-oriented and therefore boring ?

The "industry" dictates what's "boring" and what not ! Imho !

screeg said:

"Never", eh? That's a long time. Do you consider King's Bounty and the Civ games to be AAA? Because they are turn-based, and if a major company can make a very profitable non-RPG turn-based game, I don't think it's wise to say no major company will ever make a turn-based RPG.

I don't really get the mental disconnect here. People (I mean here, today in the 21st century) like turn-based games. People like RPG's. Saying no one is ever going to put them together (again) is unsupportable.

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No, King's Bounty is not a AAA game. I don't play the Civ series, so I can't comment. At any rate, the statement was clearly a generalisation and I don't preclude the possibility that there might be a couple of anomalies.

But don't hold your breath. Are King's Bounty (which is really a strategy hybrid) and Civ - not an RPG - your only examples? For how long…nearly a decade? If one TB "AAA" RPG comes out in the next decade, you can claim victory if you like but we'll still have threads exactly like this one, because one or two games a decade is pretty thin territory.

The "disconnect" is that publishers still support (to a very limited extent) TB strategy but not RPGs. They aren't the same. The other disconnect is that someone is somehow going to fund, say $1M - $2M middle-tier turn-based RPGs and I'm saying that's going to be a rarity.

I don't disagree at all that an inexpensively produced turn-based RPG could turn a comfortable little profit but publishers aren't interested in risky small fry and small startups (but bigger than "indie") don't have the $1M or the interest in risking it on a turn-based RPG.

There will be rare exceptions, like Zero Sum's angel funding, but it won't happen in any significant way. People talk about digital distribution opening the market - and it's theoretically true - but everyone forgets that someone still has to pay for the initial development. There's a reason there are ten billion gem-matching clones and even good strat games like AI War but not one genuine TB CRPG from a middle-tier development.

And for the poster that said I was pessimistic - I'm not. I happily play Spiderweb and other indie games, so the grass is at least somewhat green for me. It's the people who ask for TB gameplay but focus on AAA graphics that have it wrong.

I am being pessimistic. I rather play a rpg like baldurs gate than play whats being offered by the indies. The engine is over ten years old and still looks better than any spiderweb game. Go ahead call me an idiot or a hater but its true. I tried rpg indie games and never can get into them always start and never have the desire to finish. And this is coming from a man that still plays rpgmaker games on the pc.

Couchpotato said:

The engine is over ten years old and still looks better than any spiderweb game. Go ahead call me an idiot or a hater but its true.

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Of course it's true. Moby Games lists over 80 developers, not including Interplay and other external people, for BG2. 1.5 people plus a bit of purchased art will never compete with that.

On the other hand, I've played out BG + BG2 and Spiderweb brings new content ever year or so. But remember, BioWare didn't stay developing BG2-type games, did they? The race for premium production values means chasing mainstream wider audiences means no time for niche audiences. Make your choice.