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May 12th, 2014, 11:48
So.. is Arcanum all that? I quite like the top parts of the list but it's mostly rated highly only on the Codex and since it has deep Troika roots I have some doubts.
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May 12th, 2014, 11:49
There are no 100% clear-cut answer for the question "What is a CRPG?" but an analysis for recurring CRPG patterns in games is perfectly doable in a scientific way.
Game scientists (and even we at the Watch) have proven it already.
Last edited by HiddenX; May 12th, 2014 at 13:27.
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May 12th, 2014, 11:53
Originally Posted by HiddenX View Post
There are no 100% clear-cut answer for the question "What is a CRPG?" but an analysis for recurring CRPG patters in games is perfectly doable in a scientific way.
Game scientists (and even we at the Watch) have proven it already.
Sure, but it's highly subjective what use that is when someone says X game isn't an RPG and someone else says it is.

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May 12th, 2014, 12:58
Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Sure, but it's highly subjective what use that is when someone says X game isn't an RPG and someone else says it is.
All you have to do is to describe exactly against what "subjective criteria" you are measuring. If you can get a broader agreement/consensus on the criteria in your group - everything is fine.

If someone doesn't agree with the pattern recognizing criteria you use - fine, too

Definitions/genre categories for men made art like movies, music, games, paintings, … can only be descriptive and are changing over time. There's no law of nature that can be used for categorizing objectively.
Last edited by HiddenX; May 12th, 2014 at 13:11.
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May 12th, 2014, 13:17
Originally Posted by HiddenX View Post
All you have to do is to describe exactly against what "subjective criteria" you are measuring. If you can get a broader agreement/consensus on the criteria in your group - everything is fine.

If someone doesn't agree with the pattern recognizing criteria you use - fine, too

Definitions/genre categories for men made art like movies, music, games, paintings, … can only be descriptive and are changing over time. There's no law of nature that can be used for categorizing objectively.
If this is so simple, then why are Chien and felipepe having an argument?

You seem to agree that it's not science and as such can't have a, by nature, correct answer.

Some people find broad agreement and consensus useful in this context - and others don't.

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May 12th, 2014, 13:52
Good list. Anybody's MMV regarding the specific ordering but it encompasses most of the genre classics (and of my favorites at that, with some very oldie omissions I find understandable).
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May 12th, 2014, 14:17
If this is so simple, then why are Chien and felipepe having an argument?
felipepepe has nothing against to include games at the fuzzy borderline of the CRPG genre (Strategy, Adventures, Sims, Shooters with some CRPG elements). Chien seems to have a problem with it and wants only 100% full fledged CRPGs. Their personal criteria for the genre CRPGs differs. It's that simple.

I agree with the broader approach of felipepepe.
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May 12th, 2014, 14:28
Originally Posted by HiddenX View Post
felipepepe has nothing against to include games at the fuzzy borderline of the CRPG genre (Strategy, Adventures, Sims, Shooters with some CRPG elements). Chien seems to have a problem with it and wants only 100% full fledged CRPGs. Their personal criteria for the genre CRPGs differs. It's that simple.

I agree with the broader approach of felipepepe.
It seems I can't make my point sufficiently clear, so I'll just let it rest.

Back to the topic.

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May 12th, 2014, 14:30
I'm not going to study the list as I don't see the point of such list.
Who is it for exactly? For some RPG lover who got Alzheimer and now has to be reminded on some titles maybe?
Seriously, do you believe a newcomer in the genre will go play a crpg 15 years old because he saw it on the list? Yea right, a teenager who got hooked on RPGs just can't wait to play all ultimas.

Someone said we need the list of best RPGs in recent years and that's what I think too.
Or even better, a few lists that number worth playing titles of certain decades.
Not "100% full fledged" RPGs of course.
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May 12th, 2014, 14:45
But this is highly subjective as mentioned before. Personally I have no problems with running an old sprite game on DosBox like Eye of the Beholder.
But games before 1990 just hurt in my eyes, and the first 3d games aged horribly.
After I saw this list I started Wizardry 8 again which I bought on GoG…but what puts me off there isn't really the game itself but it's reliability. The game acts as if it wants to crash every moment and the cursor speed feels totally wacky as it has a different horizontal and vertical speed. Or as you can read in the list you are lucky if you get Wizards & Warriors to run at all. Now these may be good games, but unlike even older games I wouldn't recommend them to a teenager.
But I am sure that some of you guys see that completely differently. There is simply no way to make a list everyone is happy with.
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May 12th, 2014, 14:48
@Joxer

I'm always on the hunt of interesting CRPGs (old and new).

In the discussions on the Codex for example I was remembered that I have still to play the old Amiga classic "Gates of Dawn" - I will do this in my next holidays.

So I think these lists are useful and the mini user reviews are an interesting read. Even if you played the game already. For new CRPG enthusiasts these lists are simply a goldmine.
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May 12th, 2014, 18:10
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
…then don't rank them. And sort them alphabetically. Or, better yet, split the list apart via either subgenre or publication date. Having M&M next to Alpha Protocol or Dragon Age next to Ultima VII simply makes your entire ranking system a jumbled joke.
We discussed this, but sub-categories are always capricious and arbitrary.

Would be it be wrong to have Ultima Underworld and U7 on the same list? If not, how do you differentiate between UU and Deus Ex, and if you can't separate those, how to do separate between Alpha Protocol out?
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May 12th, 2014, 18:14
Rank them by their time periods then if you don't wish to set up categories such as scifi and traditional cliche fantasy. Yes, that was partly done (albeit more as a footnote) with "pre and post 1995 games"… but 1995-2014, a 20 year span, is hardly a sensible division.

As it stands, it's a good list, but it's overly long and has you scratching your head more often than not because of its sheer breadth and the issues that ensue.
Last edited by Drithius; May 12th, 2014 at 18:27.
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May 12th, 2014, 18:23
To me it is irrelevant on which position what game is. The list itself is great and an excellent piece of work.

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May 12th, 2014, 18:37
I thought the whole point of top games lists was so people could debate the order and post how their order would be different. To generate discussion.

So I don't understand why people have a problem with someone questioning the order.
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May 12th, 2014, 18:39
The Codex has done some excellent work indeed!

My personal Top 5 is included in their Top 6 so that proves that they cannot be accused of having bad taste .
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May 12th, 2014, 19:18
They have Dark Heart of Uukrull and Wasteland in the list so I am happy. Both those games would be in my top 5.
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May 12th, 2014, 19:42
Originally Posted by sakichop View Post
I thought the whole point of top games lists was so people could debate the order and post how their order would be different. To generate discussion.

So I don't understand why people have a problem with someone questioning the order.
Subjective lists like this are almost never going to match a person's preferred order; at least I've never found that to happen. Perhaps then they are useful for seeing how your personal tastes differ from those of the crowd.
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May 12th, 2014, 21:43
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
Rank them by their time periods then if you don't wish to set up categories such as scifi and traditional cliche fantasy. Yes, that was partly done (albeit more as a footnote) with "pre and post 1995 games"… but 1995-2014, a 20 year span, is hardly a sensible division.

As it stands, it's a good list, but it's overly long and has you scratching your head more often than not because of its sheer breadth and the issues that ensue.
I was interested in breaking down voting into 3 time periods, but it would be asking random people on the internet to devote more time and energy. At some point you just have to say, we're going to do this flawed but still interesting vote and see what happens.

Also, it's better to think of the list as top 70 most loved RPGs than top 70 best RPGs.
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May 12th, 2014, 22:03
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Someone said we need the list of best RPGs in recent years and that's what I think too.

Or even better, a few lists that number worth playing titles of certain decades.
Not "100% full fledged" RPGs of course.
As I said previously, we have a thread going right now this has been around since 2006.

The Top 10 RPGs of all time via RPGwatch members
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=727
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