General News - The Art of Turn-Based Battles

Silver

Silver

Spaceman
Staff Member
Supporter
Joined
February 13, 2014
Messages
9,314
Location
New Zealand
@Gamasutra Felipe Pepe shares his opinion on the art of turn-based battles in RPGs.

The Art of Turn-Based RPGs I: Menu-based battles

...

Action Order:

Ok, so the game is Turn-Based... but who goes first? Well, it depends.

In traditional Turn-Based games, each character has a turn. Turn order is usually decided by initiative/speed, and sometimes a very fast character can have more turns than a slow one. You can see this in games like Final Fantasy X, Temple of Elemental Evil, Fallout 1 & 2, the Gold Box games, etc.

Some games - especially tactical ones such as X-COM, Disgaea or Jagged Alliance 2 - instead alternate between a "player turn", where you control all characters and attack, followed by an "enemy turn", were the opposing force does the same. This elevates the risk & reward: you can coordinate your attacks and deal a lot of damage, but then you'll have to endure the enemy doing the same.

However, a few RPGs use instead a Phase-Based system (aka "We-Go"), where you and your opponent give orders to all characters and then the actions are executed all at once.

This is a more chaotic system, that requires some gambles. Let's say you are facing a strong monster and one that is near-death: how many characters should attack the near-death one? Just one? But what if the attack misses? Several? But if the first attack kills, then the others might be wasted...

Initiative is also key. If one of your characters is dying, a fast monster might kill him/her before your slow Cleric can cast a healing spell - will you take the gamble, or order the Ninja to use a healing item?

This system was used mostly on older RPGs, such a Bard's Tale and Wizardry, but lives on in modern Wizardry clones, such as Etrian Odissey, Stranger Of Sword City or Elminage: Gothic.

In 1991 Final Fantasy IV introduced the ATB (Active Time Battle) system, where characters can act as soon as their ATB bars fill up. This remains the quintessential JRPG combat system for a lot of people - especially since it was used in several of Squaresoft JRPGs in the 90s, including FFVII:

Final Fantasy X-2 expanded upon the concept, adding bonus damage when the player chains attacks together. Final Fantasy XIII added more flexibility: you could quickly execute weaker attacks, or wait for it to charge further and unleash stronger ones - a useful choice when trying to keep a combo up:

Bravely Default elevated combat turns into a resource. Characters can skip turn to save them for later, attacking several times at once or using powerful attacks that take several turns to execute. They can also spend more turns than they saved, which will force them to helplessly stand still for a few turns.

Grandia, on the other hand, made the turn order itself interactive - characters "race" each other on a timeline to select an action. Each action takes a certain time to be executed, and you can try to interrupt an enemy's attack, delay it or quickly prepare a defense before it lands. This system was later used in games like Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 3 & 4 and Child of Light:

Nowadays many gamers are familiar with the Persona series, where hitting an enemy with elemental magic he's weak to will negate his turn and leave him exposed. But the Turn Press system in the Shin Megami Tensei games goes much deeper. During your turn you get a certain number of points to use - and each action will consume some of those points.

However, Critical hits or exploiting enemies' weakness consumes less points than normal, while a miss will consume more points. And if you screw up big - like using a spell the enemy can absorb, you lose ALL points and your turn will end.

It's an elaborate system, that requires you to know each enemy and their weakness, then exploit those to make your turn last as long as possible.

[...]
Click to expand...
More information.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
9,314
Location
New Zealand
And it's often seen as outdated, slow, unrealistic, repetitive and many other unflattering adjectives.
Click to expand...

Thanks to Blizzard and all other "Action Enthusiasts" in the industry.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
21,962
Location
Old Europe
Its seen as outdated, repetitive and so on mostly by people who never were interested it in the first place. People whose first "rpg" was Diablo or Morrowind. That's okay, but pen and paper rpgs are turn based, what Diablo did was put an rpg system over an arcade game. I have friends who only play action rpgs, strategy and tactics don't really interest them.
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,719
Location
Vienna, Austria
forgottenlor said:
Its seen as outdated, repetitive and so on mostly by people who never were interested it in the first place. People whose first "rpg" was Diablo or Morrowind. That's okay, but pen and paper rpgs are turn based, what Diablo did was put an rpg system over an arcade game. I have friends who only play action rpgs, strategy and tactics don't really interest them.
Click to expand...

Looking at some of the last few TB RPGs or strategy games, it seems like they're still quite popular:
- Civ 6
- XCOM2
- Blackguards
- Divinity: OS2

Also, my first RPG was Diablo II and it's what has brought me to so many others with Gothic I being my second one :D
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2006
Messages
9,195
Location
Manchester, United Kingdom
We Go? Is it a true term?

By the way, the article contains nothing that veterans of the genre are not expected to know already. At least veterans who pay interest in what they do and are curious about what they do.
Veterans who go through their products like ghosts may find something in it.
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
6,265
Pladio said:
Looking at some of the last few TB RPGs or strategy games, it seems like they're still quite popular:
- Civ 6
- XCOM2
- Blackguards
- Divinity: OS2

Also, my first RPG was Diablo II and it's what has brought me to so many others with Gothic I being my second one :D
Click to expand...

Civ 6 an RPG?
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
5,645
Location
Tardis
ChienAboyeur said:
We Go? Is it a true term?
Click to expand...

It is, several of us has mentioned it in regards to you calling RTwP "Ugoigo" when in fact it is "Wego" if you use the pause function frequently. Considering how much you frown upon people who don't know the "Ugoigo" term you like to (ab)use I find your post kind of funny.
 
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
3,216
Location
Sweden
tomasp3n said:
It is, several of us has mentioned it in regards to you calling RTwP "Ugoigo" when in fact it is "Wego" if you use the pause function frequently. Considering how much you frown upon people who don't know the "Ugoigo" term you like to (ab)use I find your post kind of funny.
Click to expand...

So we go is a term as UgoIgo is one? That is very surprising. Who could have figured that? And people who consider ugoigo as a personally crafted term know the term wego and consider it a term? That is even more surprising.

No. As it was mentioned already when the point was made, spamming pause in RTwP stuff like PoE, Tyranny etc does not make it a we go sequence. It is ugoigo sequence.
The article should clear that unambigously.
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
6,265
Pladio said:
Looking at some of the last few TB RPGs or strategy games, it seems like they're still quite popular:
- Civ 6
- XCOM2
- Blackguards
- Divinity: OS2

Also, my first RPG was Diablo II and it's what has brought me to so many others with Gothic I being my second one :D
Click to expand...

These are exceptions to the rule, compare this to the number of action games which sell well. Civ 6 and XCOM are in themselves super exceptions because they are some of the few AAA turn based games. About 95% of all AAA are action games.
 
Joined
Jan 29, 2014
Messages
2,719
Location
Vienna, Austria
Carnifex said:
Even the non-North American games suffer from this, for example I love the turn based games from Japan, but I'll avoid the action-y ones like a plague.
Click to expand...

Perfect example is Front Mission, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 were perfectly fine and fun turn based games, and then they decided turn based was for wusses and the new game 'Front Mission: Evolved' was twitch based, and panned by the critics and probably killed the franchise. Also Final Fantasy XV was the final nail in the coffin for Final Fantasy as any sort of turn based anything.
 
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
5,645
Location
Tardis
tomasp3n said:
It is, several of us has mentioned it in regards to you calling RTwP "Ugoigo" when in fact it is "Wego" if you use the pause function frequently. Considering how much you frown upon people who don't know the "Ugoigo" term you like to (ab)use I find your post kind of funny.
Click to expand...

As I understand "WeGo," RTWP doesn't really qualify. You don't see it that often, but it's usually in strategy games. The Combat Mission games jump to mind. (Maybe not the best example for popularity, but they're good games. :) )

There is a distinct planning and resolution phase for each turn. When you are done planning moves for all your people and click the "done" button, you are merely a spectator, as both opposing sides move at the same time, attempting to carry out their orders. If something bad like an ambush happens in Combat Mission, for example, the AI is the one that reacts to it until the time allotted for each turn during the action phase is over. In Combat Mission, morale will determine whether your troops fight or run until it's time for the next planning phase.
 
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
4,813
If anyone has the time or patience, pictures might do better than words here. You can watch a turn or two from this long video from Combat Mission:

 
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
4,813
Alrik Fassbauer said:
Thanks to Blizzard and all other "Action Enthusiasts" in the industry.
Click to expand...

And as FP notes, even Matt Findley, the freaking president of inXile games. I'm sure he's probably mainly focused on business deals & PR rather than creative input, but it's sad that the prez of one of the biggest turn-based RPG developers would probably prefer that they be making ARPGs.
 
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Messages
2,344
Location
PA
Capt. Huggy Face said:
As I understand "WeGo," RTWP doesn't really qualify. You don't see it that often, but it's usually in strategy games. The Combat Mission games jump to mind. (Maybe not the best example for popularity, but they're good games. :) )
Click to expand...

You're right to the extent the word is most commonly used, but if I'm not mistaken the term originally only implies simultaneous turns as opposed to alternating ones. Since all turns happen at the same time in RTwP I would say that makes it closer to Wego than Ugoigo. It's only semantics though and I was more referring to Chiens use of the word Ugoigo. Personally I don't use either term very often (I tend to think these terms are more about board games than computer games). I call it Turn based, Simultaneous turn based and Real time with pause…

EDIT: Wiki quote:
"Turn-based games come in two main forms depending on whether, within a turn, players play simultaneously or take their turns in sequence."
 
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
3,216
Location
Sweden
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom