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Default Mass Effect 2 is the RPG of the decade!

July 30th, 2011, 06:32
Heheh. Gotcha.

I just spent 15 hours on a Mass Effect 2 marathon and I just have to say that all those people who said that BioWare went mainstream and action-twitchy are goddamn lunatics, because this is half dialogue, half exploration and some fighting in-between. TPS my ass, this is a new genre if anything and really well-made, too. If you want an RPG, just go back to rogue, or something.

No, really. I just can't stop playing. I have to wonder what the people who hate it want to play. Probably something like Wizardry 7?
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July 30th, 2011, 07:06
Talk about a loaded statement.

How about simply saying that you like the game, without bashing other people's opinions?
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July 30th, 2011, 07:12
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Talk about a loaded statement.

How about simply saying that you like the game without bashing other people's opinions?
Its simple JDR13 is he part of the problem he just doesn't understand. I pity him.
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July 30th, 2011, 07:34
Well, the "dumbing down" of the RPG elements was only part of why I didn't like Mass Effect 2 compared to Mass Effect 1. For me, the best part about Mass Effect was that they really nailed the atmosphere of a galactic sci-fi RPG, and I thought the story - despite being a bit too short for my tastes and having an ending that was a tad underwhelming - was fantastic. I thought that Mass Effect really captured the romanticism and mystery of space and sci-fi, and I liked how your character was mostly in the background investigating a former hero's fall from grace and a mystery hidden within the vastness of space. Your character was important, but it didn't feel like he/she was the "chosen savior" of the galaxy and the only one with the ability to do anything to stop the destruction of the universe. The lore and culture was also very well developed, which added another layer of depth to the atmosphere and overall immersion that I appreciated.

In Mass Effect 2, however, the entire game revolves around how "badass" you and your crew are, losing the elegance of the first game's story and atmosphere. It just came across as trying too hard to be "epic" and felt disingenuous in its story-telling. From Sheppard getting treated like a celebrity that everyone in the whole galaxy knows about, Sheppard being the galaxy's "only hope" for survival, the attempt at a "dark and gritty" atmosphere coming across as over the top and cringe-worthy… after a while, it just became a little nauseating.

All of the characters are extremely exaggerated and absurd. Miranda was genetically cloned/mutated/incubated/whatever to be the perfect sex-toy - er, I mean, the perfect female - Jack is an absolute maniac with no redeeming qualities and is not a person that anybody in their right mind would travel with… But at least Garrus is back! Oh wait… now he's a "badass" shoot-first, ask questions later action-movie stereotype with a "dark and gritty" nature and a painful past he needs to overcome… well, that transformation sure happened fast…basically, none of the characters are well-written or likable in my opinion. Combine that with: "Hey Sheppard, I know that you're the last and only hope for the survival of sentient life and all, but you're also the only person who can solve my family problems. If you don't fix my personal life for me, then I just don't think I'll be focused and loyal for the super-epic suicide mission against The Terminator" and you have a story that is simply mediocre in my view.

This is all just my opinion of course, and I can see and respect why people like Mass Effect 2. But for me, I dislike the game for reasons other than the stripped-out RPG elements (which were pretty thin to begin with) and focus on action; I can begrudgingly appreciate a "dumbed down" RPG if the story is good enough, but I just personally feel that Mass Effect 2's story was weak. Mass Effect 1 was far from perfect and had its share of shortcomings, but for me it at least got the story, characters, and atmosphere right, and that is why I found the game to be an enjoyable experience.
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July 30th, 2011, 07:57
Thanks Nerevarine you pointed out why I'm disappointed with ME2. I usually dont write long responses so thank you again for pointing it out better than I could. The characters in ME3 look like they take a drastic turn also.
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July 30th, 2011, 09:56
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
TPS my ass, this is a new genre if anything and really well-made, too. If you want an RPG, just go back to rogue, or something.

No, really. I just can't stop playing. I have to wonder what the people who hate it want to play. Probably something like Wizardry 7?
A new genre? Hahahaha. Ok…
What has Wizardry got to do with anything, and what is wrong with wanting an RPG if it says RPG on the box? If this is a new genre, why didn't they give it a name? Then everyone would know exactly what they're buying.

I agree with Nerevarine in that ME1>> ME2 . Sure, ME1 wasn't perfect- too many weapon manufacturers, and too many generic side planets to visit, perhaps, and the hacking minigames in ME2 are better; but I agree that besides the 'streamlined' RPG elements of ME2, I enjoyed the atmosphere and companions of ME1 more.
Last edited by RivianWitch; July 30th, 2011 at 10:12.
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July 30th, 2011, 10:35
I just spent 15 hours on a Mask of the Betrayer marathon and I have to wonder what the people who hate it want to play. Probably something like Wolfenstein 3D?
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July 30th, 2011, 10:55
Originally Posted by TheSisko View Post
I just spent 15 hours on a Mask of the Betrayer marathon and I have to wonder what the people who hate it want to play. Probably something like Wolfenstein 3D?
Now that I can agree on.
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July 30th, 2011, 11:14
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
Heheh. Gotcha.

I just spent 15 hours on a Mass Effect 2 marathon and I just have to say that all those people who said that BioWare went mainstream and action-twitchy are goddamn lunatics, because this is half dialogue, half exploration and some fighting in-between. TPS my ass, this is a new genre if anything and really well-made, too. If you want an RPG, just go back to rogue, or something.

No, really. I just can't stop playing. I have to wonder what the people who hate it want to play. Probably something like Wizardry 7?
Are you drunk again?

Anyway, it's made for people like you - so obviously you like it. I'd also agree it's VERY well made for the audience in which you belong.

But you must understand we're not all into these "experience-driven" games requiring no effort or investment.

Some of us like the traditional CRPG mechanics, where you can experiment with builds and where you make tough choices regarding your character. Some of us like games where we're challenged to think and solve interesting puzzles. Some of us like games that require careful exploration to find secrets, and which will reward our curiousity.

These linear corridors with "cinematic" moments and telegraphed shooter setups (Look! The entire room is - yet again - filled with convenient cover. I wonder if that means combat is imminent) - don't really satiate those of us who prefer the unpredictable and challenging approach.

I can set my clock by the Bioware "blueprint" design formula. Everything is so predictable and you know that no matter what choice you make, the game is never going to punish you. Everything is ok and content is fed to you in a most convenient fashion - so you don't have to bother with the hassle of making an effort.

I'm really glad you like it. I'm just sad there aren't games with this kind of budget for people who want something more challenging or demanding.

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July 30th, 2011, 12:06
Story: Awesome
Gameplay: Below average

ME2 is a good interactive movie, but it's simply not a good game. The "game" bit could just as well have been skipped entirely without much loss.

As a 3rd person shooter, it's not near as fluid as Uncharted or Gears of War, just clunky and awkward. It felt like playing Resident Evil which is ok in Survival Horror but not in an actiongame. I often wish I had a button like in the adventuregame titles from Sierra that said "this is an action-scene, would you like to skip?". Like Sierra was awesome at adventuregames but awful at actiongames, Bioware are still awesome at RPG's but awful at actiongames.

Character customization have taken a step towards rock bottom rather than improvement, to the step where Character customization isn't interesting anymore. If I didn't want customization as bad as I did, I would have used the auto-leveling system.

Dialogue is cut short, removing both character, the player and context. You control Shepherd where as you were the Warden, the Bhaalspawn, the Chosen One, The Courier, the Exile. The philosophical depth of earlier titles is gone, everything baked down to black/white extremes. You are even rewarded for sticking to the "orange path" or the "blue path" all the way through. There are no skillchecks, no traits, no perks, no attributes that allow you to handle dialogues differently. The wheel can't apply to context at all, removing the depth and spectrum that a real social encounter have. Play DA:O or Old World Blues for awhile and the loss of control is screaming at you.

The worst inventory system ever in ME1 (ya, rly, it's worse than ULTIMA I for crying out loud) was cropped instead of improved. Inventory customization was mostly meaningless. Was the 9-slot paperdoll that clunky? It have been a core element of RPG gameplay for a long time.
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July 30th, 2011, 13:23
ME2 is something like:
-50% interactive movie
-40% shooter
-10% RPG
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July 30th, 2011, 13:27
Oh, great. Now you made me doubt myself and not like the game. I pity myself.
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July 30th, 2011, 14:31
Aaanyway, I guess I just wanted to gush after having spent an entire day (and night) on the game. That doesn't happen often any more. It was late and I was tired. I mean, look at the time on the post. I actually agree with Nerevarine's assessment of ME2 as compared to ME, but playing ME2 I still could not get around the fact that this game has more atmosphere, polish and quality than most games put out today.

I just don't compare it to the first game or judge it as an RPG. (For what it's worth, I could not find the word "role playing game" on the box. I checked. ) As a game, I find it great fun. I even like the fighting (which is less than half of the game, really).

I think most people are just sad that BioWare went from Baldur's Gate to this and that there aren't more AAA+ game that make you think harder.
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July 30th, 2011, 15:52
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
(For what it's worth, I could not find the word "role playing game" on the box. I checked. ) .
All right, it might not be on the box then, but the 9.0 - 9.4 reviews call it an Action RPG.

Just sayin'.

Anyway, it's good if you're enjoying it. Seriously, no sarcasm intended there. That's very nice for you, but like previous posters have said, why take a shot at people who were expecting something more/different out of the game?

You could simply have said that you're enjoying the game, there's absolutely nothing wrong in that. Everybody has different tastes, which is also a good thing, right?

PS. ..and I've also often enjoyed action games/shooters when seen as such from the word go. I admit that maybe my reception of ME2 was coloured by what I already know of Bioware and by my experience with ME1.

The main reason why I felt a bit sad re ME2, is that I'd prefer to see Bioware's efforts concentrated on making RPG's, because like previous posters (and you yourself) have said, that's where their talents and background mainly lie.
Last edited by RivianWitch; July 30th, 2011 at 16:06.
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July 30th, 2011, 16:10
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
Aaanyway, I guess I just wanted to gush after having spent an entire day (and night) on the game. That doesn't happen often any more. It was late and I was tired. I mean, look at the time on the post. I actually agree with Nerevarine's assessment of ME2 as compared to ME, but playing ME2 I still could not get around the fact that this game has more atmosphere, polish and quality than most games put out today.

I just don't compare it to the first game or judge it as an RPG. (For what it's worth, I could not find the word "role playing game" on the box. I checked. ) As a game, I find it great fun. I even like the fighting (which is less than half of the game, really).

I think most people are just sad that BioWare went from Baldur's Gate to this and that there aren't more AAA+ game that make you think harder.
Maybe you just need to enjoy what you enjoy, and not over-analyze the whys and the hows?

You keep second-guessing yourself with games like this - almost as if you're ashamed of liking them.

Mass Effect 2 is a terrific game no matter how you slice it, but it's just not the kind of game we used to get from Bioware. No need to dwell on it if you're having fun.

I'd rate it 7/10 myself - or something like that. Maybe even 8/10 for sheer competence and production values. The thing that I have a problem with, is all the bullshit PR from Bioware claiming it's the "best game they ever did" and that it's still a deep cRPG with everything intact. We all know it's a mainstream version of what they used to do - and that's fine. I just despise the deception. Maybe it's delusion?

Either way, I like to call a spade a spade.

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July 30th, 2011, 16:24
I would probably go for around 8/10 as well. It's almost bugfree (except for occasionally getting stuck overground), it looks good, the story is good and it works as intended. It's just not groundbreaking or inventive, it cuts down alot and adds nothing.
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July 30th, 2011, 17:56
Originally Posted by RivianWitch View Post
why take a shot at people who were expecting something more/different out of the game?

You could simply have said that you're enjoying the game, there's absolutely nothing wrong in that. Everybody has different tastes, which is also a good thing, right?
Well, my head was swimming after adding 15 hours to my savegame in one day. I had stopped the first time at around 25 hours and yesterday I was immediately hooked again. I don't know why I quit the first time.

It was late, I had been drinking (good call, DArtagnan ) and couldn't understand the harsh responses the game received. I do understand, of course, but after filling my head with the (pretty detailed and consistent!) Mass Effect universe so much, I switched to fanboy mode apparently.

Originally Posted by DArtagnan View Post
Maybe you just need to enjoy what you enjoy, and not over-analyze the whys and the hows?

You keep second-guessing yourself with games like this - almost as if you're ashamed of liking them.
Hahaha, I am ashamed of my braindead taste? I think we covered this. I like adventure games in this way. You know, just walking around and talking to NPCs, not having to worry about silly little things like dying… Mass Effect has that in spades. Visiting Joker after a mission and hearing his commentary feels like visiting an old friend. Walking around The Citadel, I can always smell the atmosphere (more so in the first title). That's sort of kinda part of what makes an RPG great, too. Except the combat here is point and shoot. Oh, well.

I hope that in ME3, we will have more stat-based dialogue options. That would rock.

The thing that I have a problem with, is all the bullshit PR from Bioware claiming it's the "best game they ever did" and that it's still a deep cRPG with everything intact. We all know it's a mainstream version of what they used to do - and that's fine. I just despise the deception. Maybe it's delusion?
Yeah, I don't pay attention to that stuff so much. I would be lying to myself if I'd claim that this kind of PR does not affect me (they specifically target me to affect my opinion of the game), but I do not feel that my enjoyment is in any way altered because of it. The first thing I thought when I started the first Mass Effect was more: "Woah! Feels like a space opera! Awesome graphics! *cancels dinner appointment with mom*" and less: "I want a deep cRPG! I hope they implemented that promised feature properly." I go by what I see.

But oh well, I've had my little fun gushing. It was about time I worked on finishing this game, as Mass Effect 3 is almost around the corner. Now to decide if I'll go for the PC version and get MUCH better (SSD HD better) load times and graphics, but miss the feature of importing my Sheperd…
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July 30th, 2011, 18:27
Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
Now to decide if I'll go for the PC version and get MUCH better (SSD HD better) load times and graphics, but miss the feature of importing my Sheperd…
You'd most likely be able to download a save from the 'net that contains pretty much the decisions you had made.

..and if it's your custom face you're wanting to keep, there is an alphanumeric "formula" for any specific face in the PC version, I'm just not sure if you're able to access what it is when you have the console version.
If worst comes to worst, you can always make a new face that looks close to your old one.
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July 30th, 2011, 18:30
It was late, I had been drinking (good call, DArtagnan ) and couldn't understand the harsh responses the game received. I do understand, of course, but after filling my head with the (pretty detailed and consistent!) Mass Effect universe so much, I switched to fanboy mode apparently.
It's my speciality

Also, I do that myself sometimes. Get a little tipsy and step over the line. Given how I'm perceived around here, you'd probably assume I'm always drunk - but unfortunately that's just what I'm like without body language and my sarcastic personality being evident.


Originally Posted by Thaurin View Post
Yeah, I don't pay attention to that stuff so much. I would be lying to myself if I'd claim that this kind of PR does not affect me (they specifically target me to affect my opinion of the game), but I do not feel that my enjoyment is in any way altered because of it. The first thing I thought when I started the first Mass Effect was more: "Woah! Feels like a space opera! Awesome graphics! *cancels dinner appointment with mom*" and less: "I want a deep cRPG! I hope they implemented that promised feature properly." I go by what I see.
Actually, it was sort of a combination in my case.

At the time, I considered Jade Empire a "fluke" - and I didn't think it was indicative of the real Bioware. I thought KotOR was fantastic - and I still think it's the best combination of depth and accessibility from Bioware to this day.

When I first heard of Mass Effect - I felt absolutely sure they'd do it like they did with KotOR. I thought they'd make an accessible cRPG with enough depth to keep me happy. I knew I wasn't going to get another Baldur's Gate - as that was out of the question.

So, my first reaction to Mass Effect was like yours - in that I was "awestruck" by the powerful sci-fi atmosphere. It wasn't until I first saw the character development interface that my heart sank. I was - literally - shocked that they'd gone from D20 rules to THAT. I just couldn't believe they'd simplify it to such an extent.

That made my first time with Mass Effect one of profound disappointment.

I've since come to appreciate it as a very strong action/adventure with SOME RPG elements. But KotOR reigns supreme in terms of a mainstream cRPG.

They peaked with it - and if only they'd go back to that level of depth and couple it with their current cinematic strengths - we'd really have something.

But for an actual enthusiastic cRPG experience - we have to look towards another development house.

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July 30th, 2011, 19:15
I'm just not that much into sci fi. Any game that's going to be RPG 4 life is definitely going to be high fantasy!
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