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July 21st, 2018, 12:44
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
It didn't take long for your true colors to show

Let me guess, you are going to ignore that other post, then?
Which true colours? Are you accusing me of something now ?

I was reading up on your post before I replied. Is that the wrong thing to do now ?
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July 21st, 2018, 12:48
Originally Posted by SirJames View Post
I'm pretty sure the info is accurate. No refunds on pledges over 2 weeks old?

Or is your point only that I called the agreement the TOS but the agreement relating to the refunds is actually made at check out or something?
Actually, the TOS do mention that in both versions I looked into, so do not seem to have changed recently, which was your previous point.

I do not know what you mean by check out agreement.
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July 21st, 2018, 12:54
First of all, you did not make it clear at all when you said:
"That said, to be clear - I'm very happy we have people like this guy, who actually bothers to establish the liars out there, including SirJames."
You mean, except this part:

Well, sheep spreading lies - which might not be intentional, but there's certainly no intention of checking facts - as we've seen countless times.

Which was the very next sentence.

I do not know what you believe my mistake was? Is it that I called you out for calling someone a liar? To your point about Trump lying, actually there are many websites dedicated to just that and even several newspapers had articles to debunk things he had said.
Again, I'm not a judge or a jury. That's not something I'm comfortable with.

If you believe it's ok to come into an exchange without being informed, and telling people that because you don't personally see any "error" - I should apologize.

To me, that's not very impressive human behavior - but I don't like to make value judgments like that.

I let people be who they are.

That said, I really DO think you should do your research before making value judgments - but that, in itself, is not a value judgment. It's more an opinion I hold based on what I think is rational and useful.

You seem like a nice person overall, so I would never confuse irrational behavior with cruelty or "less value" in terms of who you are.

I do not know what you think is judgmental either in what I have said in that first post about lying.
If you don't think it's judgmental to tell me I should apologize, then that's ok with me. I think it is, though.

I agree that it now seems that SirJames was wrong, but I do not know where I have erred and I am happy for you to point that out.
Again, if you think your behavior here was ok, that's fine with me.

Obviously, I agree with you that lying is the wrong thing to do in the first instance, but it doesn't mean that calling someone a liar without backing it up is right either.
So, if a person is an established liar and has a history of ignoring everything that's stated to support it - I should still go out of my way to point it out over and over again?

Also, I need to convince YOU that is true - even though you've got nothing to do with it?

Ok, cool - that's your opinion.

Regarding the videos, the video Potato posted was 20 minutes long and I did not have the time to go through it when it was first posted. It still doesn't make my points wrong.
I went through it now though.
No, I understand that you don't think you did anything wrong. I get it.

And there's something very wrong about what the guy has done in his video.
He is using the older version of the TOS on his video, which is just as bad as lying…
I'm afraid you missed why he did that - but I'm through educating people about this here.

Conclusion
It seems to me like both sides of the aisle are making erroneous claims and not backing them up correctly. This will only end if both sides start looking into their background facts and articles in a bit more detail.

Otherwise, you will simply end up in an argument as has happened here.
Again, your opinion is worthless because you're not informed about the history with SirJames - and you're not a part of this. You think it's ok to interfere in something that doesn't concern you and you still make snap judgments based on incredibly weak information.

I'm not saying that's "wrong". Apparently, that's who you are and what you're comfortable with.

I can do similar things myself, though. We're all human and we make mistakes.

Not all of us can acknowledge those mistakes, though - and some consider it particularly uncomfortable to do in public.

To me, it's a trivial matter. I'm wrong at least 10 times each day. It's called human nature.

I think it's healthy to admit if you're wrong - it helps your state of mind in general.

Of course, it needs to be established first
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July 21st, 2018, 13:00
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Which true colours? Are you accusing me of something now ?

I was reading up on your post before I replied. Is that the wrong thing to do now ?
Are we playing stupid now? Are you saying you mentioned how I need to "leave the site" every few months to help matters, or?

It was a low blow and you know it.

Yes, it's true, I invest too much on occasion. Not in liars, though - but people like you who seem reasonable, but who struggle seeing their own part when things go wrong.

I sometimes forget that I should not invest in human weakness like that and it's a mistake I'm willing to concede I make.

But I'm learning to do better - and this exchange is exactly what I need for my self-induced ERP therapy, so thank you

Again, whether you can admit it was a low blow or not is another matter.

Also, I didn't know you replied before reading both posts.

I apologize for that.
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July 21st, 2018, 13:08
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
You mean, except this part:

Well, sheep spreading lies - which might not be intentional, but there's certainly no intention of checking facts - as we've seen countless times.

Which was the very next sentence.



Again, I'm not a judge or a jury. That's not something I'm comfortable with.

If you believe it's ok to come into an exchange without being informed, and telling people that because you don't personally see any "error" - I should apologize.

To me, that's not very impressive human behavior - but I don't like to make value judgments like that.

I let people be who they are.

That said, I really DO think you should do your research before making value judgments - but that, in itself, is not a value judgment. It's more an opinion I hold based on what I think is rational and useful.

You seem like a nice person overall, so I would never confuse irrational behavior with cruelty or "less value" in terms of who you are.



If you don't think it's judgmental to tell me I should apologize, then that's ok with me. I think it is, though.



Again, if you think your behavior here was ok, that's fine with me.



So, if a person is an established liar and has a history of ignoring everything that's stated to support it - I should still go out of my way to point it out over and over again?

Also, I need to convince YOU that is true - even though you've got nothing to do with it?

Ok, cool - that's your opinion.



No, I understand that you don't think you did anything wrong. I get it.



I'm afraid you missed why he did that - but I'm through educating people about this here.



Again, your opinion is worthless because you're not informed about the history with SirJames - and you're not a part of this. You think it's ok to interfere in something that doesn't concern you and you still make snap judgments based on incredibly weak information.

I'm not saying that's "wrong". Apparently, that's who you are and what you're comfortable with.

I can do similar things myself, though. We're all human and we make mistakes.

Not all of us can acknowledge those mistakes, though - and some consider it particularly uncomfortable to do in public.

To me, it's a trivial matter. I'm wrong at least 10 times each day. It's called human nature.

I think it's healthy to admit if you're wrong - it helps your state of mind in general.

Of course, it needs to be established first
I agree that my posts are not always fully informed. I can't read through everything and watch every video people post on the forum. I write posts based on the information at hand and unless I invest myself into a particular conversation, then I will have limited facts at hand.

I was wrong when I said that SirJames didn't seem to have lied at the time, which I have explained in the above. However, the onus is not on SJ to prove he is not a liar, but on you that accused him to prove it. That is how it works in most Western countries in any court of law and is seen in most Western countries as the right thing to do. You may disagree with that, but that's how it is currently.

My point that if you call someone something negative, you should be the one to prove your claim still stands and I cannot apologise for that.

I will certainly apologise for being misinformed however as that is on me.
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July 21st, 2018, 13:11
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Are we playing stupid now? Are you saying you mentioned how I need to "leave the site" every few months to help matters, or?

It was a low blow and you know it.

Yes, it's true, I invest too much on occasion. Not in liars, though - but people like you who seem reasonable, but who struggle seeing their own part when things go wrong.

I sometimes forget that I should not invest in human weakness like that and it's a mistake I'm willing to concede I make.

But I'm learning to do better - and this exchange is exactly what I need for my self-induced ERP therapy, so thank you

Again, whether you can admit it was a low blow or not is another matter.

Also, I didn't know you replied before reading both posts.

I apologize for that.
DA, I spoke to you several times about this before, both in PMs and in the forums.
You tend to get much more heavily involved than you care to admit and my points were to that effect, that I was trying to give you some advice and you struck me down without any explanation.

If that hurt you, then I do apologise and I will try not to do so again.
It was not meant to be a hostile comment. Reading through it again, I can see that it can be read as such. It was not my meaning though.

EDIT: I certainly do get emotionally invested in debates, which is why I have many people on my Ignore list here on the Watch now as I can't have a conversation with them.

I think it's important to try not to hurt other people and I do feel I may have delivered a blow that I didn't mean to. I do apologise again as it was written fast and in a moment of anger.
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July 21st, 2018, 13:15
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
I agree that my posts are not always fully informed. I can't read through everything and watch every video people post on the forum. I write posts based on the information at hand and unless I invest myself into a particular conversation, then I will have limited facts at hand.
Again, if you're comfortable making the kind of judgment you made - even if you concede you're not willing to read what's relevant, that's ok with me.

I can't support it as reasonable behavior - but I can acknowledge that I'm guilty of similar things, myself.

However, I can give you my personal guarentee that I apologize IMMEDIATELY if I realise I was wrong about something. That's my nature and I really do think it's trivial.

I was wrong when I said that SirJames didn't seem to have lied at the time, which I have explained in the above. However, the onus is not on SJ to prove he is not a liar, but on you that accused him to prove it. That is how it works in most Western countries in any court of law and is seen in most Western countries as the right thing to do. You may disagree with that, but that's how it is currently.
We're on a public forum not a court of law. There's no judge who can say "SirJames was wrong or lying" based on any evidence I come up with.

So, even if I establish that he's liar or spreader of misinformation - which I've already done here, I believe - and on other occasions - I'm left with HIS willingness to admit it.

YOU think it's on me in that case?

Ok, cool - that's your opinion.

My point that if you call someone something negative, you should be the one to prove your claim still stands and I cannot apologise for that.
I will concede that if a public forum was a reasonable place filled with people of integrity - then your way is better.

Personally, I'm not going to take responsibility for all the hard work while the liars feign ignorance and deliberately spread their misinformation over and over again.

As I said, I believe Star Citizen will speak for itself in this way - and there's no way I'm going to "prove" a lie is a lie every time it is spoken. In fact, I think I've been more than generous here with you - because you've just taken at least an hour of my time, because you didn't do your own research and yet felt compelled to make a value judgment.

But I like you, so I don't really mind.

I will certainly apologise for being misinformed however as that is on me.
Hey, man, no worries. It happens to us all
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July 21st, 2018, 13:16
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
DA, I spoke to you several times about this before, both in PMs and in the forums.
You tend to get much more heavily involved than you care to admit and my points were to that effect, that I was trying to give you some advice and you struck me down without any explanation.

If that hurt you, then I do apologise and I will try not to do so again.
It was not meant to be a hostile comment. Reading through it again, I can see that it can be read as such. It was not my meaning though.

EDIT: I certainly do get emotionally invested in debates, which is why I have many people on my Ignore list here on the Watch now as I can't have a conversation with them.

I think it's important to try not to hurt other people and I do feel I may have delivered a blow that I didn't mean to. I do apologise again as it was written fast and in a moment of anger.
Nah, you didn't hurt me

As much as people struggle understanding me in this way (assuming they care) - it's much more about being "intellectually" invested. It's a kind of OCD - where I seek closure, even in the face of impossible odds.

Certainly, it's my own responsibility - and not yours.

You believe you did the right thing when you did it - and that's part of why I think you're a reasonable person.

Yeah, so, you made a little mistake in this case, but so what. I make those too.

Again, no worries
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July 21st, 2018, 13:23
This is starting to get a little confusing!

The simple version is if you want to refund your Star Citizen pledge you might be in for a hard time.

I've never been through the refund process, so I'm no expert, but a lot of people find the help they need here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen_refunds/

If you haven't already backed Star Citizen I would suggest you wait for reviews or a Steam sale. It's already met it's kickstarter goal and is many years late.

I'd also like to apologise to all my loyal and trusting fans and readers should they find their refund process easier than I suggested it would be. It was not my intention to be misleading and I really am pleased your refund went smoothly. It is definitely possible to achieve your refund dreams, as I've seen on the reddit page.

Good luck with your refunds, commanders!
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July 21st, 2018, 13:24
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Again, if you're comfortable making the kind of judgment you made - even if you concede you're not willing to read what's relevant, that's ok with me.

I can't support it as reasonable behavior - but I can acknowledge that I'm guilty of similar things, myself.
Except, I do not see what I made so much as a judgement. Maybe that's where this is coming from. As per before, I claimed that if you made the accusation of a lie to someone you should substantiate it. I think that's not a judgement on you per sť, but more of a challenge on what you said.

We're on a public forum not a court of law. There's no judge who can say "SirJames was wrong or lying" based on any evidence I come up with.

So, even if I establish that he's liar or spreader of misinformation - which I've already done here, I believe - and on other occasions - I'm left with HIS willingness to admit it.

YOU think it's on me in that case?

Ok, cool - that's your opinion.
I know, but this is a public forum, so if you are not expecting SirJames to admit he is wrong, then it is worth explaining/substantiating what you are saying with argument so other may understand. This is why I mentioned what you said to SilverCoin on the Political forums on his points about America imploding.

You asked him to explain, but his arguments weren't very persuasive (I am not sure how else to put it).

Your point there was right though. He is not going to convince many people with his reasoning.

I will concede that if a public forum was a reasonable place filled with people of integrity - then your way is better.

Personally, I'm not going to take responsibility for all the hard work while the liars feign ignorance and deliberately spread their misinformation over and over again.

As I said, I believe Star Citizen will speak for itself in this way - and there's no way I'm going to "prove" a lie is a lie every time it is spoken. In fact, I think I've been more than generous here with you - because you've just taken at least an hour of my time, because you didn't do your own research and yet felt compelled to make a value judgment.

But I like you, so I don't really mind.

Hey, man, no worries. It happens to us all
That's fine, but then, simply ignore my comments in the future. I wouldn't mind.
This is a forum and by having this conversation, I have learned more about SC than I knew from the previous 19 pages.

Sometimes discussions help.
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July 21st, 2018, 13:40
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Except, I do not see what I made so much as a judgement. Maybe that's where this is coming from. As per before, I claimed that if you made the accusation of a lie to someone you should substantiate it. I think that's not a judgement on you per sť, but more of a challenge on what you said.
Here:

Actually, I agree with SJ.

Meaning, you already made up your mind. You AGREED with him.

First of all, it is rude to say things like that.

This is what you call a value judgment. You're putting a value on my statement, that's lower than it "should be".

Second, if you are to make an accusation, you should be willing to back it up (remember what you told Silver Coin on the political forum).

This is another value judgment - since I've already refused to back it up further.

Finally, if you are not willing to back up your accusation, the right thing to do is apologise.

Since I'm not willing to "back it up" as you seem to think such a thing is to be done - then what conclusion do you think I can draw from your statement here?

I know, but this is a public forum, so if you are not expecting SirJames to admit he is wrong, then it is worth explaining/substantiating what you are saying with argument so other may understand. This is why I mentioned what you said to SilverCoin on the Political forums on his points about America imploding.
Again, you're a square trying to understand a sphere. You seem to view everything I say in black and white - without caring about the context of reality.

I can't determine what YOU think is "worth it". To ME, it's never wrong to speak the truth as you see it. Honesty is another word for it.

If someone keeps telling a lie - I'm very comfortable saying it's a lie, and I don't feel responsible for proving it every time. This is apparently where we have extremely different philosophies about what's reasonable to expect from human beings.

I do agree that it's rational and productive to be CAPABLE of establishing a lie - and be ready to support your claim under REASONABLE circumstances, as in - when people have integrity and are willing to listen.

Something like a court of law is a place where you'd never find me unwilling to support my claims.

You asked him to explain, but his arguments weren't very persuasive (I am not sure how else to put it).
That was another person who doesn't have an established history of lying and ignoring any evidence to support it. At least, not that I'm aware of.

I do not treat liars the same as non-liars in terms of how I communicate with them.

But I don't think less of SirJames, even so. To me, being a liar is very, very common. I would have to dismiss 99% of humanity if I saw lies as a big deal in this way.

But I do think lies are unproductive and harmful in many cases - and so I will never support them, not even when I don't want to work hard to prove they're lies.

That's fine, but then, simply ignore my comments in the future. I wouldn't mind. This is a forum and by having this conversation, I have learned more about SC than I knew from the previous 19 pages.
I will ignore your comments at such a time as I feel they're not worth paying attention to.

Again, I like you and think you're a reasonable person overall. So, I don't intend to ignore you at this point in time - unless you really want me to, that is.

Sometimes discussions help.
They do - and I'm glad we had this exchange, personally.
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July 21st, 2018, 13:45
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
expecting SirJames to admit he is wrong
The 2 week figure seems to be common knowledge on the subreddit dedicated to Star Citizen refunds. Reddits usually pretty good with things like this.

Either way, if the specific timelines involved are incorrect the info is still in the right ball-park, so to speak.

What I want the readers to take away from this is many have had extreme difficulty securing their refund. They've taken it all the way to court and lost. My warning to the reader remains the same, so I don't believe this constitutes a liar.

A lie would be telling people the refund process doesn't care about the date you pledged and always goes smoothly for everyone. Don't be afraid to pledge big. It will make the game better. Trust me.
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July 21st, 2018, 13:49
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
However, the onus is not on SJ to prove he is not a liar, but on you that accused him to prove it. That is how it works in most Western countries in any court of law and is seen in most Western countries as the right thing to do. You may disagree with that, but that's how it is currently.
WTF! Webforums aren't court rooms.

If someone post lies and misinformation and then feels insulted when people point out what they are doing, they shouldn't post lies and misinformation in the first place. Accept to live with the crap you write or stop writing it.

Also, at the speed you and Darth are going, he's going to leave again…
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July 21st, 2018, 13:49
@Pladio

I trust you will remember SirJames' reaction to his established misinformation here. As you can see, he's utterly trivialising the 100% incorrect information about how CIG "changed their ways" because of a recent court case.

Logically, we must conclude that his misinformation is now intentional - and that means he's a liar for all to see.

He's changing the narrative to make it seem he didn't "really" say that - and that what he DID say was "in the same ballpark".

This, by the way, is exactly the point Derek Smart was trying to make - and not that "refunds are hard" - because the refund policy has been the same for a very long time, and if you compare it with "common" refund policies, I think most people would agree CIG have been rather generous in most cases.

I'm saying this so you have a better understanding of my position in terms of our debate.

You can also use the search function both here and in other threads - and see more examples of similar behavior.
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July 21st, 2018, 14:13
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
He's changing the narrative to make it seem he didn't "really" say that - and that what he DID say was "in the same ballpark".
No, I'm still personally going by the 2 week limit they're talking about on Reddit.

I think Reddit is far more likely to give you the actual info you need to get a refund than Dart or Chris Roberts who both obviously want you to pledge more.

What I was saying is, should that 2 weeks not be as relevant as Reddit believes it is, the warning about the potential difficulty in securing a refund is still good information. Take heed is my message and there's no lie about it. Honest warning.

But I've always said some people beat the struggle and actually get their refund and I find them inspirational.

Just be firm, never give up and you can get your Star Citizen refund no matter how long its been.

Happy now, dart?
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July 21st, 2018, 14:15
Maybe SJ actually IS Derek Smart

Some of his statements strike me as almost word-for-word repeats!
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July 21st, 2018, 14:26
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
Maybe SJ actually IS Derek Smart

Some of his statements strike me as almost word-for-word repeats!
Look, maybe we don't agree on the 2 week limit.

What we can agree on is this:

The sooner you request a refund the better your chances are of getting one.

Also, no, I'm not Derek Smart, I don't read any of his blogs and I played his Battlecruiser game when he released it free and it was the worst game I ever played.

I would definitely not recommend a Derek Smart game to my faithful and handsome readers.
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July 21st, 2018, 15:10
As a religious matter, perhaps this should be in P&R?
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July 21st, 2018, 17:30
Originally Posted by Darth Tagnan View Post
@Pladio

I trust you will remember SirJames' reaction to his established misinformation here. As you can see, he's utterly trivialising the 100% incorrect information about how CIG "changed their ways" because of a recent court case.

Logically, we must conclude that his misinformation is now intentional - and that means he's a liar for all to see.

He's changing the narrative to make it seem he didn't "really" say that - and that what he DID say was "in the same ballpark".

This, by the way, is exactly the point Derek Smart was trying to make - and not that "refunds are hard" - because the refund policy has been the same for a very long time, and if you compare it with "common" refund policies, I think most people would agree CIG have been rather generous in most cases.

I'm saying this so you have a better understanding of my position in terms of our debate.

You can also use the search function both here and in other threads - and see more examples of similar behavior.
Yes, I do see that the goalposts are shifting.


I don't want to take our discussion from before further, other than one point. When I mentioned I agreed with SJ, I was referring to you not showing one lie, not with his actual statements about the game.

@azarhal, I know this isn't a courtroom, but it's not because it's ze intraweb that all forms of decency need to be thrown out of the window. As I mentioned, lying is wrong in the first place. I think we mostly all agree on that one. What we seem to disagree on is whether that means that calling someone a liar should be accepted as such or whether the accusation should be substantiated. That was my request, which DA indulged me in (and I do know he did not need to prove it to me).

@Ripper, I think that's my fault
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July 21st, 2018, 17:44
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Yes, I do see that the goalposts are shifting.


I don't want to take our discussion from before further, other than one point. When I mentioned I agreed with SJ, I was referring to you not showing one lie, not with his actual statements about the game.

@azarhal, I know this isn't a courtroom, but it's not because it's ze intraweb that all forms of decency need to be thrown out of the window. As I mentioned, lying is wrong in the first place. I think we mostly all agree on that one. What we seem to disagree on is whether that means that calling someone a liar should be accepted as such or whether the accusation should be substantiated. That was my request, which DA indulged me in (and I do know he did not need to prove it to me).

@Ripper, I think that's my fault
Yeah, I think it has run its course - and I think some good came of it.

So, happy days

Also, for the record, my own position in terms of supporting crowd-funded games is that you should never, ever, support something you don't have faith in - and if you do decide to support Star Citizen, please understand that you're not pre-ordering or "buying" something.

You're essentially making a donation because you want to see the game get made, and if you expect to have your money refunded after the promised 14 days (which is actually really a month in terms of general CIG practice) then just don't do it.

A lot of people have gotten refunds AFTER their time was up, but there's absolutely no guarentee - and no sane person would expect a venture on this scale to just freely refund all amounts for any reason, at any time. They have to plan ahead years at a time, and commit funds far in advance in many cases.

There's a reason you can buy the game AFTER release, at which point there's no longer any pledge involved. At that point, you're actually buying something - and that's what I would recommend if you're not absolutely sure you want to support the development of Star Citizen, but you would still like to play the game.

If it's not released - or is not what you expected - don't buy it. That is my own personal position on the smart and informed choice.

Beyond that, if for whatever reason you DO want to support the game - remember that you can gain access to absolutely everything the game has to offer for the lowest pledge entry - which is less than most AAA games.

So, from my point of view - regardless of the countless fantasies of P2W or having to pay a lot of money for "pretty pictures" - the price they're asking for full access is ridiculously low for what I, personally, expect the game to become.

But that's me - and only me
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