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August 1st, 2007, 13:08
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
No offense guys but this thread is turning into crap.



Lets get back on topic.
But is this post an RPG … inquiring minds want to know …

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August 1st, 2007, 13:29
No it's PGR. Preciously Good Response.
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August 1st, 2007, 21:05
Originally Posted by danutz_plusplus View Post
What I still don't understand is why Baldur's Gate is an rpg and Icewind Dale isn't one? It's the same engine, same gameplay. The only differences that I know of is in the scope of the game and the fact that Baldur's Gate feature's a lot of interaction between party members, and party members with NPCs. Is there something I'm missing?

I understand trying to label Diablo as a non-rpg, but there's a huge difference between Icewind Dale and Diablo. IWD has pretty much the same combat/interaction system as BG, so labeling IWD a hack&slash would imply that BG is also a hack&slash. No?
Should the engine dictate wether its a RPG or not?

I think the gameplay in Icewind Dale has much more in common with Diablo then with BG.

In IWD, your looking for new weapons, magic boosts and most of all, there is ALOT of enemies. HUMONGUS amount of enemies, borderline to ridicilous.

There is alot, SLEEP, FIGHT, SLEEP, FIGHT, NEW WEAPON, FIGHT, LEVEL UP in IceWind Dale, in fact the whole idea is about that. The same as Diablo.

BG is more story driven, less fight inspired (even the dungeons has less amount of enemys).

If one should go by engine, then there is no doubt that Vampire is an action game. Since it uses Source engine. Or?

I don't say this or that, i am just sincerly curious about this.

/ oh, perhaps i should reopen, or open some old thread about this instead. Will not post in the matter again in this thread - Sorry, JDR - i just caught danutz post and thought it was interesting. I then Read TXAs comment on yours and reread yours /
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August 1st, 2007, 21:44
Originally Posted by mute View Post
BG is more story driven, less fight inspired (even the dungeons has less amount of enemys).
Icewind Dale featured a nice story in a beautiful gaming world, and those are two reasons why I consider it one of the top CRPGs.

The combat was cool in both IWD and the BG games (as it should be, IMO). Magic weapons were particularly powerful in Icewind Dale, because there were no saving throws from their effects. Mages grew more powerful in the BG games because they gained access to some very powerful spells.
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August 1st, 2007, 22:00
Sorry for posting in this thread, again, but I have no idea where else to post. I cannot find any "rpg discussion" thread or something similar.
Originally Posted by mute View Post
Should the engine dictate wether its a RPG or not?
I guess I didn't express myself precisely enough. I was talking more along the lines of the same gameplay, just slightly different design. More dialogue, more complex character interaction among the party members, etc.
Originally Posted by mute View Post
I think the gameplay in Icewind Dale has much more in common with Diablo then with BG.
I disagree. I believe Diablo cannot even be compared to IWD. The fact that there are a lot of enemies and lots of items isn't reason enough to make it like Diablo, at least not in my book. IWD is linear, but does offer optional side-quests.
Originally Posted by mute View Post
In IWD, your looking for new weapons, magic boosts and most of all, there is ALOT of enemies. HUMONGUS amount of enemies, borderline to ridicilous.
As I said, I don't believe this makes it Diablo-esque. The differences are huge imo.
Originally Posted by mute View Post
There is alot, SLEEP, FIGHT, SLEEP, FIGHT, NEW WEAPON, FIGHT, LEVEL UP in IceWind Dale, in fact the whole idea is about that. The same as Diablo.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're exaggerating a bit. I think BG is similar, just maybe not as frequent as in IWD. These things are spread across more in BG, and maybe that's why you didn't consider them as bothersome. And this is because BG(I've been referring to BG2,btw) is colossal in size, while IWD is a lot smaller.
Originally Posted by mute View Post
BG is more story driven, less fight inspired (even the dungeons has less amount of enemys).
I agree with Squeek that IWD had a very nice story, with a beautiful setting, really cool and interesting characters(Arundel,Kresselack,to name a few).
Originally Posted by mute View Post
If one should go by engine, then there is no doubt that Vampire is an action game. Since it uses Source engine. Or?
In my opinion there is a much bigger difference between Vampire Bloodlines and HL2 than between IWD and BG2.
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August 1st, 2007, 22:19
There is a huge traditional force among RPG players and developers : THat is the group of the dungeon crawlers.

This group is old, very, very old and strong.

IWD is bacically nothing but a dungeon crawl, because the party is going through tunnels (sometimes meeting trolls) and fighting. With that, it is meets the definition of a "dungeon crawl" quite nicely.

But : The fightuing is turn-based (German: Rundenbasiert), in contrast to the real-time fighting of let's Blizzards D2 & LOD.

To me, Blizzard invented an own sub-gentre to the role playing games : the "action-RPGs". I will say this again and again, because in my eyes & opinion the differences between this game and other games are big enough to justify the erecting of a new sub-genre.

For example, interaction is reduced to the absolute minimum. all in all, I'd even dare to say that all elements that are typical for any "traditional" RPG are totally reduced to the absolute minimum. Except the fighting, of course, which isn't really exaggerated (although it might seem so), if you compare it with Pool of Radiance 2 and IWD, which mostly consist of combat as well.

On the other hand, the Action-RPG sub-genre has invented a few NEW elements - monsters dropping randomly generated loot, for example. The whole collecting stuff (including the existence of rare and unique items).

This mixture of rather distorted (as I would say) traditional RPG elements plus the invention of new elements justifies in my opinion the building of a new sub-genre, the so-called "Action-RPG" genre.

So, to me, D2 is no RPG. Sure. It is an Action-RPG. This is a small, but distinct difference.
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August 2nd, 2007, 00:11
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
There is a huge traditional force among RPG players and developers : THat is the group of the dungeon crawlers.

This group is old, very, very old and strong.
That's definitely true, but I would characterize it a little differently. I began playing RPGs shortly after Gygax created the genre in 1974, and I remember dungeons being a big deal from the very beginning: Dungeons were the first things designed; people who ran games were called "Dungeon Masters;" the game was called "Dungeons & Dragons," etc.
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August 2nd, 2007, 00:27
I don't know what Icewind Dale some of you guys are playing, but I recently replayed the first couple of hours of IWD2, and IMO it was as different from Diablo as Diablo is from Planescape:Torment. There is TONS of dialogue, many different named NPC's with stories and backgrounds, (the mercs in the tavern, the various people in Targos, the renegade mage, the different priests of the different gods in the hospital tent, etc) and from almost every single one of these characters you can get a quest or some XP that is not combat based.
Try that in Diablo.
IWD is a lot like Divine Divinity; it is not only a combat game. I don't know how many times I would come on a nice bit of humorous dialogue, or a layered story aspect that I had to delve deeper into. I say it's an RPG without question, and just because you play through some complex and spectacular dungeons like The Severed Hand, doesn't turn it into an action game.

Just my two cents.

And don't mind JDR13 too much. I've seen him get a bit off-topic from time to time--just start slamming Baldur's Gate and he'll hop into the fray.
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August 2nd, 2007, 01:45
Allright, Baldur's Gate sucks. Way too much combat.

And I liked the first area of IWD2. It was when you left that town and went to the Goblin fort it became tedious. First you faced 20 goblins (with clerics and all) with your six companions. Then another 20 goblins. Then yet another 20 goblins. And three hours later I just stopped playing because it was soooo boring to have to relive battle after battle after battle. Especially since you had to preform every battle perfectly (meaning at least 20 reloads per battle)…

God I hated IWD2…

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August 2nd, 2007, 02:34
Let's just end this discussion by your guys defenition every single game.. except wii fit or some such a games when you are really playing yourself!!

Is a roleplaying game.. since you are taking on a role of someone.. and you can choose what this person should do… step right step left…. say a sentance or say another sentance or whatever. Just end it you guys are being ridiculess! There are already names for the genres of the different RPG's

Diablo, Diablo2, Dungeon siege, etc -> Hack and slash RPG ( by defenition no debate!)
BG2, NWN, IWD etc-> D&D based CRPG

making up your own defenitions is about as pointful as making up your own meaning of words!
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August 2nd, 2007, 02:37
Well, it's true I've never finished IWD2.

But I have played through IWD and Heart of Winter, and I still maintain there was a lot more roleplaying in the game than in a pure action rpg.


making up your own defenitions is about as pointful as making up your own meaning of words!
Did you say "pointful" on purpose? It would almost make sense in that sentence. Sorry it's bugging you, GG. I'll shut up now.
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Last edited by magerette; August 2nd, 2007 at 03:24.
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August 2nd, 2007, 08:11
Ah, interesting views. I however wondered about this in chapter II of Icewind Dale, how could people like this. Frustration, repeating combat, poor engine for the task - oh thats my view. I am forcing my self for a play through to see if Chapter II was an anamoly to this game. But it is currently resemble command and conquer more than an cRPG.

@GothicGothess. My interest in this is not to debate whats what or brand anything. I would love to have a realtime discussion with you all about this. In a classroom. Its really not the subject i care for, i am much more interested in the mindset. Why on earth do we (me included) need to brand things. I play computer games. And i call the Broken Sword line of game true RPG. And i also say that torment has to much texts. Go figure. Can't make heads and tails on myself : but in others you see yourself. But i was trying it the wrong way. Off to the mall with posters about a computer game seminarium - gothenborg - beware!
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August 2nd, 2007, 09:46
Anyone who thinks Icewind Dale isn't an RPG is borderline retarded.



Anyone who hates Baldur's Gate IS retarded!
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August 2nd, 2007, 10:00
Originally Posted by mute View Post
Why on earth do we (me included) need to brand things.
Because we're human beings. Many things in our life are so-called categories. We need categories to live. This is very good book about ithis topic:

http://www.amazon.com/Linguistic-Cat…/dp/0198700121

BUT how I said hereinbefore to define genres is very very difficult. In theory of literature it's long and hopeless struggle. By my experience the best we can do (here) is to speak about genres only in their vague meanings.
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Last edited by Artran; August 2nd, 2007 at 10:11.
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August 2nd, 2007, 12:19
Originally Posted by magerette View Post
Well, it's true I've never finished IWD2.

But I have played through IWD and Heart of Winter, and I still maintain there was a lot more roleplaying in the game than in a pure action rpg.
Agreed. IWD + HW + Luremaster is an excellent game. IWD2 was certainly not bad either but it was not as good. However they are both clearly RPGs.

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Anyone who thinks Icewind Dale isn't an RPG is borderline retarded.

Anyone who hates Baldur's Gate IS retarded!
I'm going to have to agree with this amusing remark too Well said.
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August 2nd, 2007, 14:06
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Anyone who thinks Icewind Dale isn't an RPG is borderline retarded.
I weren't saying THAT (even though it sure looks like it ). In the first part of the game you get to make your own choices just like in any other cRPG. Only that most of the game was spent in a dungeon killing goblins for loot.

Now, the difference (and it's a key difference imo) between Diablo 2 (haven't played the first one) is that Diablo 2 doesn't have these episodes. You don't really interact with any NPC's, you don't really make any choices (apart from the "how to kill that monster/what to pick up/sell" choices). If that's a Roleplaying game, then you'd might as well say counterstrike is an RPG. And saying counterstrike is an RPG is pretty much like saying Sense and Sensibility is an actionmovie.

Originally Posted by GothicGothicness View Post
Diablo, Diablo2, Dungeon siege, etc -> Hack and slash RPG ( by defenition no debate!)
Now, saying that I'm wrong just because Diablo 2 is an (action-)RPG per definition isn't much of an argument. The only reason they're seen as RPG's is because the publishers of Diablo thought the game would sell better if they labelled it an RPG. If they'd thought it had sold better yet if they'd labelled it an RTS then it would have been an RTS. IMO a roleplaying game should contain roleplaying (moments where you can choose to act differentlly depending on what your character would have done), and since (I think) Diablo doesn't do that, I don't think Diablo should be classified as a Roleplaying Game. Therefore I think that definition is wrong (as I stated before, you have to draw the line somewhere. Hack and Slash RPG's is that place IMO. Just call them Hack and Slash).

Until 1973 (or 74) homosexuality was defined as a mental illness. Saying that the subject isn't open for debate is just plain wrong.

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Anyone who hates Baldur's Gate IS retarded!
I have a friend who's not into cRPG's at all. I'm sure he wouldn't find Baldur's Gate entertaining. He's not retarded. Statement proved false.

The reason I disliked (not hated ) BG was that once you came to Naskel mines, the main story turned into a mindless hackfest (in Naskel mines you killed kobolts. That was pretty much it. Then came the bandit camp, where you killed bandits. That was pretty much it THERE. Then came the Cloakwood mines! Where you killed orks. That's the point where I got fed up with BG). Before that I liked the game.

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August 2nd, 2007, 20:35
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Anyone who hates Baldur's Gate IS retarded!
<-- retarded!

I just cannot bring myself to hate a game… hate is a mask of fear, and I'm just not afraid of attempts to entertain me, no matter whether they're successful or not.
But even if I didn't hate the BGs and IWDs, I would like to mention that they are prime examples of games I did not like.
*mutters something about 'condensed boredom', 'cringeworthy characters' and 'the most generic setting in all of AD&D' before limping back to the cell*
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August 2nd, 2007, 20:41
I like all the games mentioned. They're all in my games collection.
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August 2nd, 2007, 20:58
Originally Posted by Jaz View Post
<-- retarded!

I just cannot bring myself to hate a game… hate is a mask of fear, and I'm just not afraid of attempts to entertain me, no matter whether they're successful or not.
But even if I didn't hate the BGs and IWDs, I would like to mention that they are prime examples of games I did not like.
*mutters something about 'condensed boredom', 'cringeworthy characters' and 'the most generic setting in all of AD&D' before limping back to the cell*
*mutters something along the same lines and also confesses to being retarded*
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August 2nd, 2007, 22:28
Originally Posted by Ubereil View Post
The reason I disliked (not hated ) BG was that once you came to Naskel mines, the main story turned into a mindless hackfest (in Naskel mines you killed kobolts. That was pretty much it. Then came the bandit camp, where you killed bandits. That was pretty much it THERE. Then came the Cloakwood mines! Where you killed orks. That's the point where I got fed up with BG). Before that I liked the game.
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So you don't like Baldurs Gate, you don't like Diablo 2, you don't like IWD 2. Just curious, how many games do you like?


What's funny is that you say you disliked the main story BG because it's a "mindless hackfest" and that the game has "too much combat", but earlier you talked about really enjoying Max Payne.
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