Home improvement

Prime Junta

RPGCodex' Little BRO
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Okay, so I got commended for derailing a News thread -- I get the picture. But what the hey, let's talk about home improvement anyway.

We're doing our kitchen and bathroom. It's our biggest home improvement project thus far, although I've seen far bigger ones fairly close, since my parents are home improvement nuts and always seem to have some project or other going on.

Here's what I've learned so far, from this and previous projects:

* It'll go over budget. And over schedule. The only question is, by how much.
* You're far more likely to regret not spending enough than spending too much, as long as you don't actually go bankrupt.
* There's an insane amount of detail in a kitchen.
* Full-service kitchen shops cost more, but not all that much more -- and they're pretty good for risk management, since they're responsible for the screw-ups.
* Given the choice between a dedicated craftsman and a contractor committed to staying on-budget and on-schedule, I'll take the craftsman. 'Cuz the only way to stay on-budget and on-schedule is to cut corners somewhere (see first bullet above).
* You only know what needs to be done after living somewhere for a year or two. And even then you'll probably make some stupid mistake.
* If you don't, somebody else will.
* Building inspectors are a PITA, bless their little hearts.
* The builder will always bitch about the tiles, even if you asked him first what kind of tiles he prefers, and based your choice on that. They'll be too hard, too soft, too thin, too thick, too small, too big, the wrong shape, or too irregular, or at least the seams will be the wrong width. Or else they'll be out of stock and you'll have to wait two months for them. Or all of the above. Consequently, you'll go over-budget and over-schedule (see first bullet point.)
* There will be at least one mistake in the kitchen delivery, which will take at least one more week to fix. Or a month, if you're unlucky.
* When the electrician says "Oh, no need to write it down, I'll remember," write it down. He won't read it, but you'll have something to point to when he forgot to put in the cable for the oven.
* When the contractor, plumber, and kitchen designer all say "No problem, that's easy," take it in writing. Else see the first bullet point above.
* Everything produces incredible amounts of dust.
* Builders never take into consideration that things need to set, dry, or harden, nor that some things have to be delivered. (See first bullet point above.)
* Cables and pipes aren't where you expect them to be, and are where you don't expect them to be.
* Expect to be asked to weigh in on things that are completely outside your area of competence.
* "Do it the way you'd do it for yourself" generally works in such situations. It'll probably mean you'll go over-budget and over-schedule, though. (See first bullet point above.)
* There's a whole world of countertops out there. People make them out of everything, including recycled glass, recycled plastic, reconstituted stone, and concrete. Subsequently they fight bitter flame wars over their relative merits. People will sever old friendships if you choose anything other than granite/hardwood/local wood (oiled)/local wood (heat-treated)/recycled plastic/recycled glass/quartz/Corian/stainless steel/laminate/marble.
* Induction hobs rule. Mine isn't even installed yet, but I know it rules, because if it doesn't, all this will have gone to waste, and I'm not ready to face up to that prospect.
* If you're not patient, home improvement will teach it to you. It takes patience to draft preliminary plans. It takes patience to take them to contractors and suppliers in order to choose one. And boy does it take patience to survive the process.

My recycled-plastic Durat countertop just arrived today, by the way, and it's looking pretty good. The seam still needs to be sanded down. The guy who installed it will do it on Monday, first thing.

I'm just not quite sure which Monday.
 
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Had my kitchen re-done nearly 2 years ago now, and ALL of the above are TOTALLY correct!! :)
 
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Heh, many of those look familiar. On tiles they complained about some because they were too heavy and took ages to stick to the wall properly, some because they were too hard and difficult to cut and some because they were too brittle and broke a couple of times. Others they were fine with.

Not sure I'd agree that there's that much detail in a kitchen all things considered, there's some fairly standard sizes of units and appliances, I worked my layouts out in excel and that was easy enough.

I'd have gone for induction hobs as well but my girlfriend wanted a big range cooker and she got to choose the oven, I could choose the fridge though. In terms of things ruling - american style fridges rule, especially if they have a built in water filter & ice maker, I get actively frustrated going round to anyone else's house and having to bugger around with ice cube trays (to get ice that tastes like tap water as well). Also the fisher & paykel dishdrawer is very effective.

The electrics I can sympathise on, we had an architect & full electrical plans, the contractor told us to just put post it notes up and then left the electrics for long enough that the post it notes had gone and so surprise surprise there's a couple of light switches on the snagging list still.

Overall I'd add - if you've got the time and mental strength to plan every last detail of the layout & source all the fittings and non-building materials yourself you'll end up far better off than the stuff that your contractor / architect will suggest. It's a massive hassle though.
 
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We did a pretty good compromise; we did choose most of the stuff ourselves, although the kitchen designer was extremely helpful.

The countertop is finally finished, by the way. They lied. The seam isn't invisible to the naked eye. If I take off my glasses and peer at the countertop from a distance of 10 cm at the right spot, I can just make it out. It did take me about five minutes to find it, though, even though I remembered pretty well where it's supposed to be, so I'm not exactly unhappy. ;)

But boy do these things drag on. Today the plumber proclaimed himself unhappy with our choice of faucet, and punished us by buggering off and saying he'll install it tomorrow, or Friday, or perhaps next week. And the electrician started to install a plug in the wrong place, noticed his mistake, and buggered off, promising to finish it tomorrow, or Friday, or perhaps next week.

But there has been some progress, at least...
 
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The process sounds quite alarming, Prime J. There are a few things about the kitchen in our new house that have had to be done--new sink, new dishwasher, change electric stove to gas stove, etc-- but I've been blessed in having a spouse who has been able to do it all for me without calling in the outside world of contractors and advisors.

We all have different gifts, though--there is one electrically powered object he can't deal with at all: my computer. ;)
 
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We did a pretty good compromise; we did choose most of the stuff ourselves, although the kitchen designer was extremely helpful.

We had a couple of kitchen designers over from the all in one type places but they weren't really massively helpful, I'd worked out some possible layouts first and gave them free reign to make suggestions but they came up with some real crap, even trying to tell us that we just couldn't fit in what we wanted.

Overall the kitchen was probably the least painful, the central heating systems & bathrooms were probably the most awkward.
 
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@mags: Yep, I know my limitations. I'm not totally hopeless around tools and stuff, but I also know better than try to plaster a wall or tile anything more complicated than a simple, rectangular surface. And I'm not even allowed to do plumbing or electricity (good thing too). Overall, it's going pretty well now; it's just damn annoying that whenever they hit a snag, everyone goes home, or to some other construction site.

@Benedict: with us the kitchen is clearly the easiest too; the only annoyances we're having stem from the electrician who can't be bothered to read plans. The bathroom is a whole another ball game; thank goodness it's nearing completion too, although excruciatingly slowly.

But there really *is* an insane amount of detail in a kitchen. You may not realize it, but it's true. We found an extremely good designer/project manager, though, and she makes all the difference. (She's the reason we bought if from that place anyway; otherwise we probably would have done everything ourselves and just ordered the stuff from a cabinet maker.)
 
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GAWD, there are people who work fulltime as kitchen designers? I guess that just proves how many details it has inside, I could not imagine spending my days planning kitchens. Even if I have been at an architect company for sometime designing rooms.

I have one thing to add about kitchens, it is very easy to think about beauty over functionality, a thing you will regret much later. Like that wood might look marvelous but what happen after you put a hot pan on it or accidently dropped a knife, or spilled a hot brooch on it. That oven/fridge/dish washer/microwave you name it really looks cool, but just how good is it in practice?

hihi, my thinking might be too practical sometimes :p
 
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GAWD, there are people who work fulltime as kitchen designers? I guess that just proves how many details it has inside, I could not imagine spending my days planning kitchens. Even if I have been at an architect company for sometime designing rooms.

Someone has to design the damn things at kitchen companies. It's more than just designing them, though -- they're in charge of the whole thing from first contact to delivery.

I can imagine worse fates, although it wouldn't be my career of choice either -- and I *definitely* appreciate someone who's really good at it.

I have one thing to add about kitchens, it is very easy to think about beauty over functionality, a thing you will regret much later. Like that wood might look marvelous but what happen after you put a hot pan on it or accidently dropped a knife, or spilled a hot brooch on it. That oven/fridge/dish washer/microwave you name it really looks cool, but just how good is it in practice?

Absolutely. We're in the lucky position of having lived in our kitchen for three and a half years, which means we know exactly what we wanted to change. I'm sure we'll discover some bloopers about the new one, too, but it's a huge improvement in most respects. Our primary reason for picking the countertop material, for example, was practicality -- it's better than stone in several respects (although not quite as good in a few others).

hihi, my thinking might be too practical sometimes :p

Funny, my impression is the exact opposite... ;)
 
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@mags: Yep, I know my limitations. I'm not totally hopeless around tools and stuff, but I also know better than try to plaster a wall or tile anything more complicated than a simple, rectangular surface. And I'm not even allowed to do plumbing or electricity (good thing too). Overall, it's going pretty well now; it's just damn annoying that whenever they hit a snag, everyone goes home, or to some other construction site.

I don't think I'd want either of us trying to plaster a wall or put in tile--that's a very specific skillset and unless you have that (to me completely anal) ability to be both utterly detail oriented and also obsess over the big picture simultaneously, it's got to be very onerous work. And plumbing and electrical work, while logical, require both good handyman skills and a bunch of facts stored in the brain which come with time and practice. Personally, I get rapidly bored with indoor work, and then very sloppy, so I totally would do what you two are doing for anything major.


But there really *is* an insane amount of detail in a kitchen. You may not realize it, but it's true. We found an extremely good designer/project manager, though, and she makes all the difference. (She's the reason we bought if from that place anyway; otherwise we probably would have done everything ourselves and just ordered the stuff from a cabinet maker.)
You're fortunate to have found an honest and capable person to oversee the details. My last job was at a big box warehouse store here, and we had all kinds of people advising customers--most could have cared less about the level of service the customer ended up with.
 
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But there really *is* an insane amount of detail in a kitchen. You may not realize it, but it's true. We found an extremely good designer/project manager, though, and she makes all the difference. (She's the reason we bought if from that place anyway; otherwise we probably would have done everything ourselves and just ordered the stuff from a cabinet maker.)

Still not with you on it being that insane . . . style, colour, handles, layouts, appliances, power points, work surface, wall tiles, floor tiles . . .

A fair bit for the amount of floor space covered I guess, but all modular enough that it's relatively painless. Plus considerations of the "working triangle" business and ergonomics too I suppose, although there's only really a couple of design principles on that.

I suppose for us it felt relatively simple as it was kind of self contained. There was only the one bit with the extractor outlet & the plumbing & the gas outlet, it was a good place to have it anyway and there's no real overlap between the kitchen and other bits of the house - you fit it in there or you don't have it. So I did spend a while working out the perfect layout and researching cheap suppliers, but that was it.
 
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Still not with you on it being that insane . . . style, colour, handles, layouts, appliances, power points, work surface, wall tiles, floor tiles . . .

...door and drawer finishes and mechanisms, carousel mechanisms, trash systems, countertop materials, sink materials and formats, oven technologies, hob technologies, door opening systems, cabinet shapes, depths, and sizes, cupboard and drawer furnishings, lights (halogen, LED, fluorescent, embedded, light-bottom, attached), grades and finishes of chipboard and melamin in the cabinet frames, models of plumbing attachments, models and colors of electrical components, grades and finishes in dividers and bases, switches (infrared or hard)... I'm sure there's more, but that's off the top of my head.
 
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...door and drawer finishes and mechanisms, carousel mechanisms, trash systems, countertop materials, sink materials and formats, oven technologies, hob technologies, door opening systems, cabinet shapes, depths, and sizes, cupboard and drawer furnishings, lights (halogen, LED, fluorescent, embedded, light-bottom, attached), grades and finishes of chipboard and melamin in the cabinet frames, models of plumbing attachments, models and colors of electrical components, grades and finishes in dividers and bases, switches (infrared or hard)... I'm sure there's more, but that's off the top of my head.

Heh . . . depends whether you have an idea of what kitchen you want & how your space works really.

For us, we knew we wanted an american fridge, range cooker, soft close, gloss finish, two sinks, granite worktop, matching interiors etc and around that with the space that we had there were limited options on the layout to fit it all in, and the minor options like under counter lights & LEDs & so on were all pretty easy to just flick through a catalogue & pick something.

Possibly it just felt easiest because it didn't involve moving any walls around, it didn't need to match anything else that we were doing and myself & my girlfriend had no differences of opinion on any of the aesthetics and functionality.

We did have a bit of trouble sorting out the bins though admittedly . . . our only space was under the sinks and we'd hoped to find a slide out mechanism with bins that fitted around the sinks (assuming it was a common thing), nothing fitted. Eventually we just got two back of the door bins from argos for £30 and they've worked perfectly.
 
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Walp, it's been another week and a half. We had to move back home last Thursday, around which time the guys started claiming that they'd be done "tomorrow," so I figured it can't be much more than a week. And today things are finally looking like they actually might finish tomorrow -- the only things left are connecting the bathroom furnishings to the plumbing and a few finishing touches to the kitchen.

The kitchen is fully functional, except for the lower shelves of the upper cupboards which need cover panels for the embedded LED lights, and the bathroom is looking pretty damn good too. The induction hob really *does* rock -- I haven't done much more than boil some eggs and make some coffee with it, but boy is it powerful, fast, and responsive. Even the coffee turns out better; I don't know if it's because my new induction-compatible brew-pot is better, or because the water boils in about 45 seconds and then blasts through the grounds like a bat out of Hell. Either way, it works.

The plumber is coming tomorrow morning to connect up the stuff in the bathroom; unless something goes horribly wrong, that ought to be that, minus some very minor purely cosmetic things that we'll probably neglect and leave half-done for years.
 
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You know we expect a full pictorial slideshow of the finished project now. Very familiar with those half-finished things that remain that way--you'll find they usually get finished right about the time you put your house up for sale.

I'll have to google induction hob, since it may be too advanced for my technologically primitive area--never seen or heard of one during my short-lived career in the retail home improvement sector. My guess on the coffee improving would be the speed--the less time the water takes to seep its way down, the less bitter oils it picks up--also your coffeepot may automatically use the correct temperature, which is a big deal in the taste, apparently.

Congratulations on surviving the ordeal, and good luck with getting everyone out within a week. :)
 
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An induction hob uses an oscillating magnetic field to directly create heat in the bottom of the cooking pot. That means that it heats the pots faster than a gas flame, changes temperature as fast as a gas flame, and is more energy-efficient than regular heaters because the induction coil doesn't itself heat up.

The trade-offs are cost (induction hobs cost about two or three times as much as regular ones) and that they only work on cooking pots with magnetizable bottoms -- cast iron is great, and most current stainless-steel cookware have bottoms specially made to work with induction.

And yeah, it really does work that way. I love to cook with gas, but I have a feeling I'll like cooking with induction at least as much, if not more -- and those hobs have the major advantage of being way easier to clean than gas ranges, because it's just a flat ceramic surface.

Re the coffee pot: it certainly doesn't do any temperature control, since it's basically the same design as one of these:

bialetti_moka_zen.jpg


Water's in the bottom compartment; as it boils, the pressure forces it through the grinds and makes coffee in the top compartment. So I figure it's either the faster process, or just a better-designed pot. Or else I've just been off my usual variety of coffee for so long that I can properly appreciate it again.
 
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Walp, it'll be ready... tomorrow.

The plumber was cursing at the plumbing for most of the day, and managed to connect everything up. The only things missing now are the shower wall and some cosmetic panels to block up a few gaps. The shower wall would have been done except that the guys broke a screw and had to go find a new one. So, tomorrow. And even if it isn't tomorrow, we have everything working, so once the silicone sets, we'll be able to shower at home again. Yay!
 
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