Top 10 CRPGs of all time

NWN (1 and 2) are much, much more forgiving than Gothic 2.

You can beat the whole shebang using just a straight-up Wizard or Greatsword wielding Fighter with Cleave ;)
 
1. Ultima VII: A large world to explore. The cities feel alive with interesting people and you don't have to fight lots of enemies in them. The game have the best dialogue ever. Others may say that the combat was weak but I found it excellent since every fight was quickly finished.

I completed it more times than I want to admit. I wish to replay it again but there is no point when I know every corner of the game. All other roleplaying games before it feel blasé compared to it.

2. Ultima VII: Yes it was so incredible that I give it the second place too

3. Ultima VII part II: Loved that one too, the same game engine but a new world to explore. Yes I felt really disappointed with Ultima VIII.

4. Gothic II: A fun interactive world to explore.They fixed most of the flaws in Gothic I, better dialogues, graphics and they added Khorinis! One of the biggest flaws was the terrible dialogue, compared to Ultima VII it felt underwhelming. The story was a bit weak too, the Sleeper had a master that is now threatening the world. I also replayed this game way too many times.

5. The Witcher II: One of the best stories ever told, fascinating characters and lots of rolepaying. I was not so fond of the combat. Too much profanity, especially the sex scene between Trish and the witcher felt way too low. After finishing the game I only wanted more of it. I have not had that feeling for years, usually after finishing a game it feels like a relief to that finally done.

6. VTM Bloodlines: I just love city adventures, throw in some vampires and a 3d shooter and you have a great game. I even admit I got a bit spooked when exploring that old hotel. Although some parts especially towards the ending involved way too much combat.

7. Baldurs Gate I: A better story than the second one but the sequel had a better polished engine and more interesting character interaction.

8. Kotor: The best Star wars roleplaying game. Intriguing dialogues and for once fun combat, perhaps because it's fast moving. I never anticipated the twist with Revan. This is the only game I actually felt bad when doing evil things.

9. Deus Ex: Good combination of 3d shooter, stealth and roleplaying.

10. Fallout 3 NW: Fun to explore the mojave wasteland and meet it's inhabitants. I really disliked VATS and never used it.
 
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@Biterolf

Do you know that the original Piranha Bytes team always named Ultima 7 as their biggest influence? They loved the gameworld-interactivity and wanted to recreate this in a 3d environment. Because of budget restrictions they invented the barrier around a small mining prison -> Gothic 1 was born.

PS:
The Gothic 2 story is enhanced with the add-in Night of the Raven.
 
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JDR13 said:
That's too bad because the Infinity Engine games are superior to Dragon Age in almost every aspect. DA is basically a more modern version of Baldur's Gate except that it's dumbed down in a lot of ways. - i.e. Less characters, smaller game world, less variety of weapons, items, magic, etc., much smaller and less varied bestiary, less freedom, etc. etc….
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I am probably one of the few people that enjoyed DA:O much more than BG2. (I also belong to the minority that enjoyed BG1 more than BG2).

One of the main reasons is the fact that they ditched the D&D rule system. I particularly loathe the concept of memorising spells. I had a lot of fun with the combat system in DA:O, particularly the magic system and as a mage I had a blast performing combos with Morrigan.

Another thing that was done better in DA:O were the C&C, an aspect that I tend to value a lot in RPGs, and that was largely non-existent in BG1/2. (At least that is what my my memory tells me).
 
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Preparing for the battle of Redcliffe could be done with minor sidequests with c&c;
c&c were also implemented in how you gain the trust of your party members through conversation choices.
So choices with (little) conseqences are implemented throughout the game.
I don't remember real game changers like in the Witcher 2 for example.

PS:
This is the answer for the question of JDR13 below.
Some board database magic? :)
 
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I'm seriously struggling to recall any meaningful C&C in DA. Other than the endgame choices, what was there?

I remember having to choose which Dwarven faction to side with, but the only thing that did was show you a different slide after the game was over. In fact, that's all any of the choices did. What choices were there that actually altered the game in any way?

@HiddenX: I don't recall how that actually affected your companions though other than simply eliciting different dialogue. It's not as if someone would actually leave your party.
 
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There was one guy who tried to kill you. You could forgive him and then recruit him.
Dependent on what you did there was an event where he either helps you - or turns against you.

For the other stuff it was mostly "take the good or the bad way, in the long run, it doesn't matter"

I remember exactly that there was the choice of helping an child which was possesed by a demon. Choices were either "go to the mage's guild, but this can take very long, might be too late to rescue him" or "sacrifice the mother via blood magic. The mother offered herself for that".
I chose the latter option, because "time was of the essence". But of course the time could not run out. It was just a split because good and evil. I took the evil decision in this case because it seemed more practical and logical.

Edit: I don't think choices need to have a big impact on gameplay all the time.
Different Pictures and Texts in the end are fine. I mean it's really tons of work which likely only few people will ever see.
I was quite happy to see lots of NPCs in the spidergames react to my actions in the game. Just a little thing, but it helps the immersion a lot and is not done in all games.
Like "The evil mage is terrorrizing us, we suffer!"
And in normal games this NPC won't change it's text when you kill the mage, unless he is the questgiver himself.
But in spiderweb games all NPCs react, so it becomes a "With the mad mage gone, we feel much safer! Thank the gods!"
 
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I like choices with consequences (little or big).
If you have to play the game twice or more to see all … why not?

Complete freedom leeds to a sandbox style of game where choices hardly matter.
You have extreme many choices without consequences.
Everything is reversible, choices have less conseqences: you can do what you want, whenever you want. Why need I character advancement then? I don't like this.
Example: Vanilla Oblivion.

The opposite are games on rails. Linear CRPGs. You have no choice at all, this is even worse.
 
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Kordanor:
BG2 also had many c&c, just implemented in different way. Best example is you can change NPCs alignment depending on how you interact with them. It's just DA c&c is more easy to remember because it shows up in epilogue ;)
 
Not sure if I'd really call that C&C. You basically just talk to them until they mention something they want and then it turns into an extra quest. It's the same thing Bioware's done in all of their games since KotOR.
 
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Even the codex made note of DAO's C&C. Nothing groundbreaking (comparing most RPG's C&C to Witcher 2's Chapter 2 would be unfair) but certainly more prevalent than what the BGs had.
 
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Eh, actually, BG2 had some good c&c, just on much personal level rather than affecting world as whole. It mainly involved your travelling companions.

Examples:
You can help Anomen to become a knight or not (change in alignment also occurs).
Depending on your actions, Jaheira may regret defending you from Harpers.
You can save Keldorn's marriage.
If you play a fighter class, you can help Nalia restore her home and in return, run the place yourself. You can be evil and face consequences of peasant revolt and lose the keep. Change some people's life - let a girl marry a guy she loves or choose a guy who has a lot of wealth. Let priest of Tempus preach in the keep. Lots of things, just doesn't show up in ending slides like DA. You can even make Nalia's auntie commit suicide depending on your dialogue choice.
Help Edwin to recover powerful artifact and permanently change his gender.
Save your romantic interest's soul from Bohdi's corruption.
Change Sarevok! :)

Lots and lots. Since BG story is rather personal (compared to DA's save the world, change the world story), I think this is rather fitting - c&c focused on your companions.
 
Biterolf said:
1. Ultima VII: A large world to explore. The cities feel alive with interesting people and you don't have to fight lots of enemies in them. The game have the best dialogue ever. Others may say that the combat was weak but I found it excellent since every fight was quickly finished.

I completed it more times than I want to admit. I wish to replay it again but there is no point when I know every corner of the game. All other roleplaying games before it feel blasé compared to it.

2. Ultima VII: Yes it was so incredible that I give it the second place too

3. Ultima VII part II: Loved that one too, the same game engine but a new world to explore. Yes I felt really disappointed with Ultima VIII.

4. Gothic II: A fun interactive world to explore.They fixed most of the flaws in Gothic I, better dialogues, graphics and they added Khorinis! One of the biggest flaws was the terrible dialogue, compared to Ultima VII it felt underwhelming. The story was a bit weak too, the Sleeper had a master that is now threatening the world. I also replayed this game way too many times.

5. The Witcher II: One of the best stories ever told, fascinating characters and lots of rolepaying. I was not so fond of the combat. Too much profanity, especially the sex scene between Trish and the witcher felt way too low. After finishing the game I only wanted more of it. I have not had that feeling for years, usually after finishing a game it feels like a relief to that finally done.

6. VTM Bloodlines: I just love city adventures, throw in some vampires and a 3d shooter and you have a great game. I even admit I got a bit spooked when exploring that old hotel. Although some parts especially towards the ending involved way too much combat.

7. Baldurs Gate I: A better story than the second one but the sequel had a better polished engine and more interesting character interaction.

8. Kotor: The best Star wars roleplaying game. Intriguing dialogues and for once fun combat, perhaps because it's fast moving. I never anticipated the twist with Revan. This is the only game I actually felt bad when doing evil things.

9. Deus Ex: Good combination of 3d shooter, stealth and roleplaying.

10. Fallout 3 NW: Fun to explore the mojave wasteland and meet it's inhabitants. I really disliked VATS and never used it.
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Nice list of the old and new. But only one infinity engine game?? Thems fightin words in some quarters - but not with me. Head over to that corner and I'll cover you . .

ptu,ptu ptu . . . bangbangbang . . . ptu . . . . ptu
 
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HiddenX said:
@Biterolf

Do you know that the original Piranha Bytes team always named Ultima 7 as their biggest influence? They loved the gameworld-interactivity and wanted to recreate this in a 3d environment. Because of budget restrictions they invented the barrier around a small mining prison -> Gothic 1 was born.

PS:
The Gothic 2 story is enhanced with the add-in Night of the Raven.
Click to expand...

Yes the creators of Divine Divinity was also inspired by U7, but it's strange how far away from the tree that the apple sometimes fall. If you look at the end result I would have guessed that the inspiration came from U8.
 
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Dajjer said:
@Kordanor
Nice list.

I like your idea of the two lists. For years Wizardry 1 was in my all time top ten list. It was fun when it first came out. Wiz came out right when home computing was making its first major splash. And playing an RPG without any mates was pretty special at the time. I played it on an Apple 2. And even to this day, it still holds a special place in my RPG heart. I mean finally getting those final level spells like Titlowait was like a badge of honor (it would probably be an achievement in todays steam world).

But that game contained no auto map. A real need to manually and carefully graph your progress (remember spinner squares??). And real perma-death. As in you had to invent a party to rescue you dead party that died in the dungeon - coupled with stat decreases.

(Think a moment how problematic that could be - your level 9 party dying on dungeon level 5, so you have to send some young pups to rescue you. That means you had to train them up. Perhaps you thought ahead and already had some guys ready to go, but I doubt they were trained up as high as your now deceased party. yucky yucky yucky. . . .

Another Wizardry game feature was that whenever you leveled up some of your stats "could" go down . . . yikes. The way I tried to beat the game was to copy my save game on 2 floppys, and if something really did bad happen, I reloaded from my other save game floppy. I swear, if you computer gamed back then it involved really understanding how your computer, your operating system and the game itself functioned.

So while I do have some fond memories of my gaming sessions with Wiz. Wizardry 1 could never go on any all time CRPG list that I am making today.
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As screaming mad as it made me I actually liked these features. The only bad part was when they failed to resurrect your level 53 Samurai at the temple of Cant and he was perma dead.

This is preceisely why WizFix was invented (the first modding tool), because some of these rules were draconian. The beauty of a computer was this is the way D&D was supposed to be played but too often a DM would ignore this. A computer didn't have to worry about ticking your players off. It had a set of rules and did not vere from them.
 
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Lucky Day said:
As screaming mad as it made me I actually liked these features. The only bad part was when they failed to resurrect your level 53 Samurai at the temple of Cant and he was perma dead.

This is preceisely why WizFix was invented (the first modding tool), because some of these rules were draconian. The beauty of a computer was this is the way D&D was supposed to be played but too often a DM would ignore this. A computer didn't have to worry about ticking your players off. It had a set of rules and did not vere from them.
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Wasn't Draconian one of the early level monsters in Wiz 1??? Very tough game to cut your CRPG teeth on. Consider this, while a DM might ignore some D&D rules, a computer DM could easily be tricked with just a modicum of computer knowledge.

Oh Yeah, good times, the old go-to-temple-and-get- the-resurrect to dust feature. There is nothing even close to that in todays gaming. And to be honest most old school gamers would cheat there way around that old perma death feature anyway. Killing off you level 53 samurai???? Never.

Interestingly after growing up with games like this, sometime down the line I played Mass Effect 1. It was the first RPG game I had ever played where your companions could die in combat but be resurrected after the battle was over. But I did not know this until about 1/3 of the way through the game. I was lucky enough to play skillfully enough to never have any of my guys die in battle. Until that mid game battle. I kept reloading because I liked my companions. It was a trip to the game forums that told me my deceased companions would rejoin me after the battle was over. I was like WTF??? and I think I only played a couple more hours until completely quitting. I'm used to that gaming feature now and actually look forward to a Mass Effect replay soon.
 
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The character death via Dialoge in ME1 was great though. ^^

For me personally it's all about difficulty and persistent effects.
If I lose a character in a fight and he would stay dead - I would just load. So I am fine if he just get rezzed after the fight.
Imho worst case scenario in this is MMX and Spiderweb games. Why? Because when a character dies/gets unconcious he doesn't get XP. Effectively your party loses XP. But this isn't communicated to the player. At some point you just realize "darn...I guess I need to start over". Once I knew that, well...I just loaded every time when a character missed out XP. Meaning I played Avernum on Torment without having a single Death. ^^
Added "some" extra difficulty to a game which was brutally hard already.
 
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