90% of almost all MMOs are about combat
SWTOR has "class stories" & "planet stories", too.
But also combat ...
90% of almost all MMOs are about combat
But is SWTOR FTP or HTTP?
That's not what I said, quite the contrary. If that was true, D&D would have a distinct profile, and I'm saying exactly that it doesn't have that.
Eh, I never played or read anything about DDO, I was just going by my experience with 3 and 3.5E combat. Is this stuff part of 4E or just something they made up to make DDO less frustrating/ better to be solo'ed? Makes me think of NWN and the "parry" skill.
I said repeatedly, and AFAIK you need Great Cleave for that? Also, tone down the butthurt.
You certainly seemed to bitch about it being unrealistic - but I guess it's worse because you don't like the powers in the game?
Great Cleave has no limit, that's true. But if you go Two Weapon Fighting - you can potentially kill 3-4 enemies pr. round as a first level Fighter (I forget if Cleave can be used more than once pr. round). You don't think that's "plenty"? Because I do.
As for butthurt - I don't think that's my experience. But I admit it can be annoying when people put something down they don't know about.
Again, you think D&D is a bad system because it's pedestrian and unrealistic at once - right?
I'm trying to understand what you mean by pedestrian.
Do you think Cleave is a pedestrian ability?
Personally, I think D&D is anything but pedestrian - but it's also not a game with a million active abilities. But it does have plenty of active abilities. Some of them are gained through feats, some of them are class inherent - and several are part of the core combat system. There's more tactical choice in D&D 3.0 and 3.5 than any single MMO you can mention.
Beyond that, I've always considered D&D to have one of the best magic systems out there - because the spells are almost all useful and inventive. They're not just iterations of a few damage/control types - which IS the norm.
The sense of progression is just about perfect, because you don't level up all the time - but just often enough to get that sense of evolving. The best part is that each level is very significant - where in most RPG systems, you hardly notice a single level.
Kinda hate to stick my nose in the muck, but DDO is fairly good about not having "dead" levels. Whether it's new abilities, new feats, or new spells, you generally get something, regardless of class and your position in the 1-20 heroic progression. If nothing else, you get access to some sort of new items since level restrictions on weapons are based on even levels while the restrictions on gear are based on odd level.Hmm? How is i.e. the fourth level for a straight fighter 'significant'? You get like +1 BAB and +1 Fortitude saving throw. That's it. Not a reason to freak out. Ok, maybe 4th level isn't a good example, because there that +1 BAB still counts. Let's say 16th level.
edit: ok I forgot fighters get a bonus feat on 4th level. Let's say barbarian then.
Kinda hate to stick my nose in the muck, but DDO is fairly good about not having "dead" levels. Whether it's new abilities, new feats, or new spells, you generally get something, regardless of class and your position in the 1-20 heroic progression. If nothing else, you get access to some sort of new items since level restrictions on weapons are based on even levels while the restrictions on gear are based on odd level.
I bitched about it being neither here nor there.
Like I said, I know nothing specific about DDO. In most games based on 3 and 3.5E I've played a level 1 fighter is usually dead meat when attacked by 4 humanoid enemies from the flanking bonuses alone.
o noes you don't agree with my assesment of D&D. I guess all the time I've been playing D&D based video games has been for nought!
Yes.
Eh, are you talking PnP or something? Complete Figter's Handbook or whatever they call their cash cows now? Yeah, I'm sure you can get a million active abilities if you buy PnP supplements. Not in most video games though. Case in point: Icewind Dale 2. Therefore, you are wrong.
Vancian magic best ever? I don't think so. Oh I forgot: you can probably buy a dozen magic compendiums with rules for an alternate magic system.
Hmm? How is i.e. the fourth level for a straight fighter 'significant'? You get like +1 BAB and +1 Fortitude saving throw. That's it. Not a reason to freak out. Ok, maybe 4th level isn't a good example, because there that +1 BAB still counts. Let's say 16th level.
edit: ok I forgot fighters get a bonus feat on 4th level. Let's say barbarian then.
Seems like kinda a drastic way to curb pay2win, but hey. Personally I say let people pay all they want in their games, just make them do it on their own servers. Let them think of it as gated communities - they'll love it
The system was in place before it became F2P with cash shop - so no, wrong again
Let's play a new game:
Say something about DDO that's actually true!
Maybe it would help if you played it a little or you read something about it?
Not all computer games based on D&D rules are Icewind Dale 2. Just saying
Can you even read? That this was introduced as a measure against pay2win balance issues was dteowner's idea, not mine.
Wait what? I have no intention of playing DDO, nor of reading about it, consequently. What I'm saying is that the implementation of D&D in video games has bored and underwhelmed me in the past. What I'm hearing now about DDO doesn't make it better, though. Level requirements for low level items is some extreme cheese.
Or NWN, or NWN2, or Pools of Radiance, or Temple of Elemental Evil, right? Not to mention that 2nd edition was a complete snoozefest too.
You called it pedestrian and unrealistic - and both as negatives. Are you now saying you didn't mean unrealistic is a negative? Then why bring it up?
Ah, so you want to be able to take on 4 enemies regardless of what they're capable of?
You want to be a superhero from level 1 - I get it
Certainly strange that you have played so much of what you don't like. I guess you really enjoy pedestrian abilities after all
I'm talking about D&D - not poor implementations of D&D. I specifically said you don't have a million active abilities, so maybe if you read with your eyes open?
I'm not including any of the other books - just the core rules.
But you probably have around 5-10+ active abilities at level one in D&D - depending on your class.
Icewind Dale 2 is not D&D - it's a very bad implementation of D&D which got almost everything wrong.
Temple of Elemental Evil is probably closest - but even that implementation leaves out a hell of a lot of tactical options.
Neverwinter Nights is a reasonable real-time implementation of the rules - and it does what it can to approximate some of the complexity of the D&D combat system, but most of the tactical options are missing.
Oh, so what is the best magic system in your mind? I'm curious.
You get a significant amount of hitpoints
you get a feat, you get a fortitude bonus,
you get new skill points
Oh, so a Fighter is significant, then?
Barbarians get an extra rage usage - and they get a shitload of hitpoints - as well as BAB, skill points and Fortitude.
Me: "D&D is neither A nor B."
DArt: "So you're saying D&D is totally A, and moreso than other games! But you can't prove it!"
That's all I'm willing to say on this matter anymore. It's getting extremely herp derp.
No, but as I explicitly said, I want to play solo. As in, there will be no other characters around. Can you see then why it might be a problem if my character can't handle more than one enemy at a time?
No, I just have a bit of a strange relationship with RPG's. They're my favorite genre, bar none, but I find more fault with them than with other games. I can enjoy other games and say "hey, that's a nice little shooter!" or "hey, that's a nice little strategy game!", and not think about them or their flaws much. As an example, I got Far Cry in a GOG sale and have been playing it very irregularly for like half a year now. I don't care how herp derp it is that a little bit of foliage renders my character completely invisible even when they stand right in front of me and I shoot them in the face. It's also possible that this doesn't happen on the higher difficulties. Don't care. I'm not passionate about that game.
My relationship with RPG's may be masochistic, destructive and dysfunctional, but that's how I like it.
Wait, how much exactly does a paladin heal with lay on hands on level 1? 1 HP IIRC, is that correct? How long does the average Barbarian's rage last on the lower levels (which he can use exactly once before resting)? Characters may have some choices in low level D&D, but they're far from thrilling.
So what you're saying is that every implementation of D&D was lacking. See, that was my point from the start.
Herp derp. You said "D&D haz best magic EVAR". If you want to elaborate on that, do so. To me, the obvious pitfalls of Vancian magic are impossible to overlook. Ok, my wizard is a magic battery, and his batteriness increases as he gains levels. That much is true for many systems. But then - while my wizard gains more "memory", and thus can memorize more of the same spells, he still can't cast a single instance of that spell before he has "memorized" it? Seems p. ridiculous. Then there's also the relative uselessness of low level casters in D&D. And there are the practical limitations of a system that was designed to be relatively easy to use in PnP (again, might be a weakness of D&D's habit to cater to everyone and their moms). Just off the top of my head Wizardry 8's system comes to mind, which allows casting spells at different power levels, something that should be seen more. Ok, newer D&D's have something akin to that using feats, but it's a lot clunkier, not as freely usable, and not relevant on the lower levels.
Never underestimate the dramatical effect of hitpoints! Exciting.
Also much potential for drama, especially on a melee character. They tend to get, like… 1 of them.
No, but a fighter is a little less boring to build thanks to the feats, if you enjoy playing around with that kind of stuff. The trouble is, though:
- In PnP, one feat more or less probably won't change the flow of the gaming experience much, which is especially true if the DM puts more emphasis on actual roleplaying
- In computer games, there tend to be not that many (exciting) feats to take. Also, due to the nature of feats that require other feats a lot of this is anticlimactic and mostly about following the path that you chose for the character upon creation.
Okok dude, let's say level 6 instead, right? You get… +2 trap sense. BOOYAH. IIRC that means a +2 bonus to reflex saving throws against traps, which aren't the barbarians forte anyway, so you'll likely still fail that save. Especially useless as in most D&D video games a rogue will take care of scouting and traps, not the barb.
Ehm, why would a game throw more enemies at you than you can handle?
Are you not aware that all modern MMOs allow for solo play?
Hmm, that's certainly a bit strange.
I guess it makes sense that you play a lot of games with implementations of rules you don't like - if you actually enjoy playing games you don't like
Ok, that's very strange - but I can accept it.
Rage lasts for 3 rounds + his CON modifier - meaning up to 7 rounds at first level.
If you don't think +4 STR, +4 CON and +2 WILL save is a big deal for seven rounds - I don't know what is.
Lacking in terms of being perfect implementations? Sure.
But you point seemed to be that all D&D games were boring and then you talk about the worst possible implementation as your "explanation".
Pretty weak argument, I must say.
Ehm, you haven't played many Sorcerers - have you?
Try looking up that class when you're in the mood to educate yourself about that which you speak
As for Wizardry 8 and it's handful of iterations of "Acid damage" "Fire damage" "Cold damage" spells at various levels - that's a better alternative?
That's funny
Oh, so being able to survive a lot more punishment is boring to you?
Makes about as much sense as everything else you're saying.
But ok, I'm starting to appreciate where you're coming from. You're a masochist - and you're not excited about abilities that make a huge difference in combat.
You don't like to roleplay characters with much intelligence, do you? I can see why
But, actually, there are several viable melee builds that rely on reasonably high intelligence - and skills can be quite useful.
I take it you don't enjoy playing around with feats?
Wait what? Now you're talking about PnP? Why? Your entire point has been about computer games - you just said so.
That's right, you don't find feats that grant extra attacks exciting. So, going from Power Attack to Cleave to Great Cleave is boring - because who cares about killing multiple mobs, right?
Whirlwind is boring too, right?
The Two Weapon fighting feats are dull? Who cares about dual wielding - that's boring.
Who cares about Weapon Specialization adding extra damage? That's boring.
Improved Critical? Getting more critical hits for even more damage is boring?
Disarm? Boring. Removing the weapon of the opponent - SO pedestrian, right.
Because in Wizardry 8 - you have so many active abilities as a melee dude. Except I can't really think of any. I wonder why.
How would a Thief take care of traps when you want to play solo?
I'm trying hard to appreciate your logic - but it's pretty much non-existant at this point.
Sorry
Is it inappropriate to TL;DR an entire discussion, particularly if one has participated in it? I have much shame.