Witcher Abby, evil? Say, what? :) Spoilers!

Acleacius said:

You know it's not just here, I have seen people referring to Abby as Evil or Evil Witch and was part of the point of this thread. It's pretty interesting as I actually replay it looking for evil, yet I can't seem to find it. I don't really think this falls in the bad reviewers topic we have often discussed here as it's pretty obvious some can see evil, where others of us can't, even if we are looking with a microscope, hehe.

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Then Magerette was right, you ARE idolizing women to the extend that you can't see their flaws even when they're pointed out to you.

You can't be a potion maker AND a local healer without realizing what is going to happen when you sell a desperate young girl a lethal poison, yet Abigail did so anyway = Evil (not "Muwhahaha come see my underground vulcano base" kind of Evil, but evil nonetheless). Abigail could have tried to help her yet she didn't. Instead she provided the tools for the girl's death and that is not something a "Good" person does.

PJ has already mentioned most of the reasons why Abigail is not a nice person at all, so I'm not going to repeat them once again. For me there was no real choice, since I hate religious fanatics with a vengeance, but there was no doubt in my mind that it was a choice of the lesser evil.

I don't really understand why this has become such an issue. NOTHING in The Witcher is black/white. No choice in the game is ever transparent and the consequences for these choice are not readily apparent either. The Squirrels are terrorists who will not hesitate to kill innocent bystanders or take civilian hostages and the Order are a bunch of fanatical zealots who will crush everyone not obedient to their Eternal Flame ... that is what I would call a choice between the plague and cholera (Danish saying. Don't know if the translated version makes sense). With that in mind, then I don't understand why you would think that the choice between Abigail and the Mob would be a simple one.

Then again, as you said: We all perceive things differently even when looking at the same thing.

skavenhorde said:

This brings me back to a question I asked not too long ago in Off Topic. What is good and evil? Alrik Fassbauer, Gallifrey, Prime Junta and Dusk had some interesting ideas on what exactly is evil and good.

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With regards to Abigail, here's my take.

When I see her, I see a woman who's been dealt a really bad hand, who chooses to do everything within her power, regardless of any harm it may do to others, to play it.

She's completely alone, in a village that is clearly within an inch of gang-raping and murdering her, with no-one to turn to but herself. She possesses certain powers and skills that cut two ways -- they can protect her, they're needed by the villagers, but they will make the villagers trust her even less. But she's a fighter.

She despises the villagers, seeing them as mean, ignorant, small-minded hicks. She doesn't lose any sleep if some die through her actions. She even gets a certain satisfaction if some of them suffer for what they've done to her, or want to do to her. She wouldn't kill someone for the fun of it, but she's certainly ready to kill them all in self-defense, and possibly just to make her position a bit more secure.

So, she does what she does because she's a fighter, she feels she owes them nothing while they owe her a lot, and to hell with the consequences. For her, it's all about survival: only the strong live, and by God she wants to be one of the strong. If that means manipulation, offering herself to some lout for favors, using an orphan as a pawn, even killing someone, then so be it.

Now, here's another question: does she have a choice in what she does? I think she does. And if she does have that choice, in my book, that makes her evil.

Abigail reminded me a lot about a really nice film I've seen: Babette's Feast. It's about a French woman who gets exiled to an out-of-the-way Danish village. The village is very much like the one in The Witcher -- close-minded, introverted, highly religious, and so on, and it treats Babette much the same way as Abigail. However, Babette takes the opposite path from Abigail, and the film ends very differently. I got the strong feeling that Abigail could have taken that path too, and perhaps if she had, there would have been no hellhound, and the village would have been a lot happier (and more boring) place.

fatBastard() said:

Then Magerette was right, you ARE idolizing women to the extend that you can't see their flaws even when they're pointed out to you.

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What's wrong with idolizing women seriously though, her flaws that I saw were human ones. I saw a racist town that was quick to blame the witch/outsider.

fatBastard() said:

You can't be a potion maker AND a local healer without realizing what is going to happen when you sell a desperate young girl a lethal poison.

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Maybe, the girl needed it to kill some really, really big rats (gods forbid, rats are our friends ) or the large variety of beasties in the area(I can't count the number I killed in the game). Like ACE said maybe she needed it to do in the rapist who considered her his girlfriend (stalker alert). The rapist was a member of the only law enforcement in the town and I use the word law very loosely. So what other options would the girl have to get free of this guy? She could leave but why should SHE leave her home when it wasn't her fault what was happening to her. I would consider what Abby did very justified and even heroic if you look at the backlash that would happen if the town found out the girl murdered the soldier and Abby sold her the poison.

fatBastard() said:

With that in mind, then I don't understand why you would think that the choice between Abigail and the Mob would be a simple one.

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It's not simple that's why there are so many posts discussing this very issue.

fatBastard() said:

Then again, as you said: We all perceive things differently even when looking at the same thing.

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Agreed.

I would percieve Abby as evil if she knowingly conspired to have all of these events happen or even just some of them. A little stomach ache doesn't prove she could control the one guy who murdered his brother. The girl dying I explained earlier and the hellhound I don't believe was ever linked back to her. In the game, it said the hellhound showed up because of all the evil in the town.

@PJ How could Abby have gone down the "good", law and order type of road, in a land where law and order is represented by the town head zealot? She would have no chance with the sheep that followed the grand puba.

Before you say ad hominem at me just kidding, please be aware that I agree with a lot of your theory. The strong female with a will to survive. Also giving up the orphan to save her own skin, though by that time things have gotten out of hand and she may have been forced to give him up. That still is a stretch to justify giving up Alvin. I think she could of just ran off with Alvin if she really wanted to.

I don't agree with you on that she knew all about what was going on. She was doing her best to survive in a town that needed her but hated her at the same time. Sure, she manipulated some people to be more generous to her or the squirrels. You tell me one politician or businessman that doesn't manipulate people and I'll show you someone out of work.

On a side note great santa pic and avatar

Prime Junta said:

Actually, he's Lebanese.


Photo from Tabarja, to the north of Beirut. That's my father-in-law Selim in the background.

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Looks like a prime example of Christmas spirit from both gentlemen.

Back to the tooth-and-nail, nature of good and evil Abby debate:

skavenhorde wrote:

What's wrong with idolizing women ?

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That's a very interesting spelling error--IDOL-izing, as making an idol of something definitely removes it's human side-it's fallibilities...

The thing that's wrong with idealizing women, or Woman, is the same thing that's wrong with idealizing any human being. There are many loving, good and nurturing women out there, and there are many dishonest, self-absorbed female opportunists and manipulators as well--same with men. But when you type-cast a gender you open yourself up to disillusionment sometimes even to the point of bitterness when reality conflicts with the ideal. Also you become an enabler of the worst in people. If Abby really is evil, and you close your eyes to it, not only do you open yourself up to any hurt she may cause you, you also enable her to continue in a path that is destructive to her own self.

The choice that Prime Junta points out is very real. You can be persecuted and an outcast and not turn to evil in self-defense. It's just much much harder, and takes a level of forgiving and positive effort that many people can't reach. Good is always harder than evil, and frequently requires sacrifice and self-abnegation. Evil is something anyone can do if they allow themselves to believe they are in the right, others are in the wrong and therefore any actions are justified self-defense.

Really, IMO Abby is about what happens to people when they become victims, and how they may choose to react. She has been made a much more sympathetic character than the Rev for a reason, and the Squirrels and the Order have been portrayed as flawed in the same way. It's a mechanic that forces you to realize how difficult it is to take sides and feel sure you are right--that is, it blurs the line between "Us" and "Them," and never gives the player a simple feeling of moral superiority, because in real life, there seldom is one.

skavenhorde said:

@PJ How could Abby have gone down the "good", law and order type of road, in a land where law and order is represented by the town head zealot? She would have no chance with the sheep that followed the grand puba.

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So, do you believe that it's only possible to do good if the law is on your side?

There are several things she could have done differently.

(1) Just walk away. She ended up doing that, and it worked out fine. A "good" person, when faced with the having to do evil to survive, but with the option to walk away from it, would have walked away from it.

(2) When the girl came to buy poison from her, she could have talked to her. Asked what's happened. Had a good cry with her -- hell, they were much in the same situation. Then tried to figure out some way in which she could have continued her life, without killing anyone. She could have taken her in as an apprentice, to teach her the herbalist and healer's skills. Together maybe they could have done twice as much, perhaps started a little shop selling cures and charms for the traders passing by -- and certainly together they would have been less vulnerable to the mob terror of the villagers.

(3) When asked to give up Alvin to the Reverend, again, she could have refused (and faced the consequences, whatever they might have been -- but certainly not worse than what actually transpired), or, again, just left.

(4) With Odo and his brother... well, she certainly had no need to get involved with that at all.

) don't agree with you on that she knew all about what was going on. She was doing her best to survive in a town that needed her but hated her at the same time. Sure, she manipulated some people to be more generous to her or the squirrels. You tell me one politician or businessman that doesn't manipulate people and I'll show you someone out of work.

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I never said that I thought her evil (in my interpretation of her character) was inexcusable. On the contrary, it's entirely understandable; some things about her are even admirable -- her determination, pluck, sheer refusal to give up despite the odds she was facing. What is evil about her (again, in that interpretation) is the line she crosses -- where she puts herself before anyone else.

Oh, as to politicians and businessmen... while I do know a few pretty decent ones, in general I'd say that if that's your standard for moral behavior, well, you could choose better.

skavenhorde said:

Maybe, the girl needed it to kill some really, really big rats (gods forbid, rats are our friends ) or the large variety of beasties in the area(I can't count the number I killed in the game).

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No. If you want to get rid of Rats, you make Rat Poison. If you want to get rid of other kinds of animals, you make other kinds of animal poisons. What Abigail sold the young girl was made for humans, ergo Abigail KNEW this was to be used to kill a human being, not make someone sick and puke for a week without end but KILL that person.

skavenhorde said:

Like ACE said maybe she needed it to do in the rapist who considered her his girlfriend (stalker alert).

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The first thing you do as a healer is find out what is wrong with the person before you attempt to heal the ailment. Only a really incompetent healer would mistake the intent of a desperate young girl seeking a means to end her own life with an angry young girl seeking a way to get revenge for the deeds done to her. I most certainly didn't see Abigail as incompetent.

skavenhorde said:

The rapist was a member of the only law enforcement in the town and I use the word law very loosely. So what other options would the girl have to get free of this guy? She could leave but why should SHE leave her home when it wasn't her fault what was happening to her. I would consider what Abby did very justified and even heroic if you look at the backlash that would happen if the town found out the girl murdered the soldier and Abby sold her the poison.

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Abigail KNEW what she sold the poor girl and she KNEW what it was to be used for. There is nothing heroic about aiding a desperate young girl ending her own life. Especially knowing that:

1) It wasn't necessary. As you said, the poor girl could have run away and started over somewhere else. Abigail could have helped her leaving undetected instead of helping her end her own life.

2) It would serve no purpose. With the young girl dead, Mikuel would never be charged with rape and not only would the poor girl be dead, he would also get away with it.

No, Abigail knew what she was doing yet she did it anyway.

@magerette The idolizing women statement wasn't a spelling error, it is a word. I put the comma in the wrong place. Anyways, it was a bad joke I have many of them and most of the time people don't get them. You'll have to forgive me when I attempt to be funny, I still can blame it on the whole semi-noob forum memember thing for now.

Both you and PJ make an interesting point. Both of you seem to say that she had a choice, but it was the harder one to make and that she shouldn't of put herself first and to hell with everybody else.

Actually your theories are very well thought out that and it is difficult to argue them but I'm wondering if you both agree that she was the definate "lesser evil" out of the bunch, but you say she shouldn't of fought the real evil in the town. The town was so wicked it summoned a hellhound. Isn't fighting that greater evil considered good then? How does leaving or self sacrifice help in this sitation?

She took care of people who didn't like her. (though she gave a tummy ache to one of them) She took Alvin in when no one else would. These seem like good things but then the true evil in the town decided to do what it does best and cause chaos and suffering. Death of the brother, poisoned girl and hellhounds show up. So they blame Alvin and the witch/outsiders. Doing good doesn't always mean turning tale and running. It means sometimes fighting for what you believe in, but that gets tricky depending on what you believe.

The problem I'm having is that she wasn't ever connected to the hellhounds and the real reason she sold the poison. PJ you make a good point with what she could of done, but I still gotta go with she wasn't able to read her mind. Those rats could have been really, really big almost skaven like Seriously, do you both disagree with me that the girl wasn't justified in maybe seeking the death of the rapist/stalker(Abby could have thought this)? She could of tried to do what PJ said and live together but he is the law there and how long would that of last?

I agree wholeheartily that she shouldn't of gave Alvin up, that was just wrong. I can't justify her actions there. There is no way that she didn't know that giving Alvin to the reverend would end horribly. I tried to justify it, but naah there is no other reason other than to save herself. The noble thing to have done in that situation was fight or run with Alvin just like you said.

Well this has been a most interesting Christmas I got to say that. I never thought I would be debating the nature of good and evil today Thanks for an different point of view on how some actions done in desperate situations can set you either above or below the crowd.

@PJ The politician and businessmen remark are an example of how people we look up to or work for manipulate people on a daily basis to achieve their goals (I'm not a fan of corporations or politics) and wasn't my standard for moral behavior

fatBastard() said:

What Abigail sold the young girl was made for humans, ergo Abigail KNEW this was to be used to kill a human being, not make someone sick and puke for a week without end but KILL that person.

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Didn't want to leave you out fatbastard, you wrote your reply while I was typing. Anyways, really, really big rats . Seriously, She wouldn't of known what she was going to use it for. Like I said before she can't be expected to be a mind reader. Did it ever say in the game the girl came to her distraught? I'm a big fuzzy on that one. If so then that blows a huge hole in my theory. Unless it was to get rid of a raping stalker who has delusions that this girl is his girlfriend. Small town, no law to speak of, little money what other options could she have had other than get rid of the soldier or become his slave. Instead of doing that she kills herself. I wish there was more dialogue concerning Act 1 because there are many holes in the story that can be interpreted many different ways (Thanks a lot CDRED ) Just kidding.

fatBastard() said:

1) It wasn't necessary. As you said, the poor girl could have run away and started over somewhere else. Abigail could have helped her leaving undetected instead of helping her end her own life..

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Why is doing good most of the time associated with weakness or running. Fight for what you believe in. Take that evil and shove it right back in their face and show them that decent people won't put up with it.

So here are the main points of what was horrible about abby.

1) dead brother (never even closely proven to Abby. Brother most likely offed him and blamed her)

2) Poison (debatable so far )

3) Alvin (in my opionion definate cowardly act and evil -selfish.)

4) hellhounds (Town brought that on themselves)

So far it looks like poison is the real evil thing she did, if she meant to. The others are the zeolots blaming the outsider. Now Alvin was one that even in the game when I definatly thought they were just blaming the poor witch, then Alvin says Abby left him with the reverend. Well my opinion changed immediatly (though I tried to think of an excuse for her but that's all it would an excuse) which was truly selfish. Also maybe sleeping with geralt to influence his choice was evil. But is that truly evil...nah I don't think so.


Remember really really big rats, I mean monster rats. We've faced down really big wolves and other monsters. Why not have a rat problem (cliche RPG quest) Maybe she was given a quest to clean out the cellar full of rats and on the way there she decided it wasn't worth it to do that quest for the 100th time since CRPG were born and killed herself instead of face another giant rat. I had to leave on another bad joke

skavenhorde said:

Actually your theories are very well thought out that and it is difficult to argue them but I'm wondering if you both agree that she was the definate "lesser evil" out of the bunch, but you say she shouldn't of fought the real evil in the town. The town was so wicked it summoned a hellhound. Isn't fighting that greater evil considered good then? How does leaving or self sacrifice help in this sitation?

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That's a very good question, because it gets us into significantly deeper waters. Namely, what do we mean by fighting evil?

In most games, "fighting evil" means physically killing evil creatures or people. In fact, this is all too often the way it's framed in real life. However, I believe that most of the time this in fact does the contrary -- it *perpetuates* evil, and creates a vicious spiral that leads to ever greater evil.

I believe that if there's one lesson great religious thinkers like the Dalai Lama, the Christ, or Rabbi Hillel can teach us, it is that you should strive to fight evil with kindness rather than with violence. Forgiveness, love, compassion, and mercy can triumph over injustice, hatred, and vengeance. However, to actually manage this, we have to transcend much of our "animal nature."

So, in order to qualify as unambiguously "good," Abigail would have had to fight the evil of the village with love and compassion rather than by manipulation, magic, and poison.

She took care of people who didn't like her. (though she gave a tummy ache to one of them) She took Alvin in when no one else would. These seem like good things but then the true evil in the town decided to do what it does best and cause chaos and suffering. Death of the brother, poisoned girl and hellhounds show up. So they blame Alvin and the witch/outsiders. Doing good doesn't always mean turning tale and running. It means sometimes fighting for what you believe in, but that gets tricky depending on what you believe.

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That's true too. However, did Abigail fight for what she believed in... or only for herself -- her own pride, her own survival, her own position? I believe it's the latter.

The problem I'm having is that she wasn't ever connected to the hellhounds and the real reason she sold the poison. PJ you make a good point with what she could of done, but I still gotta go with she wasn't able to read her mind. Those rats could have been really, really big almost skaven like

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That's beside the point, since *she could have asked.* That's all. "Ilsa, what's this poison for? There aren't any skavens around, and barghests can't be poisoned. Is it for yourself or for Mykul? Can't you think of some other way?"

But either she knew and didn't care, or she didn't care to know. In either case, what she did was wrong.

Seriously, do you both disagree with me that the girl wasn't justified in maybe seeking the death of the rapist/stalker(Abby could have thought this)?

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Justified in what kind of ethical framework? Genocide is justifiable in some ethical frameworks. What you're proffering is "an eye for an eye" ethics -- the kind that leads to tit-for-tat killings, vendettas, ultimately wars that grind on for millennia. I don't think those are very solid ethical systems; ultimately, they're rationalizations for acts of vengeance and retribution rather than justice, let alone "goodness."

She could of tried to do what PJ said and live together but he is the law there and how long would that of last?

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We can't know that, can we? What we do know is that the choices she did make ended up with the village mobbing up, ready to burn her at the stake -- and, due to Geralt's intervention, ultimately the slaughter of everyone in the village. In other words, even from a purely utilitarian ethical framework, it didn't work.

@PJ The politician and businessmen remark are an example of how people we look up to or work for manipulate people on a daily basis to achieve their goals (I'm not a fan of corporations or politics) and wasn't my standard for moral behavior

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Precisely: the best thing about The Witcher is that we have perfectly believable, "regular" people doing extreme, even evil things -- simply because they're thrown into nasty circumstances and fail to rise above their failings as people. That's what evil in real life is almost always about -- not about some guy putting on spiky armor and building a really nasty-looking dark tower.

scavenhorde wrote:

The idolizing women statement wasn't a spelling error, it is a word. I put the comma in the wrong place. Anyways, it was a bad joke I have many of them and most of the time people don't get them. You'll have to forgive me when I attempt to be funny, I still can blame it on the whole semi-noob forum memember thing for now.

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I'm often clueless about getting jokes, so no worries. There isn't a huge difference between idealizing and idolizing anyway...

Prime Junta has pretty much covered anything more I might want to say about Abby, but to answer your question, yes to me she was clearly the lesser evil. And my original feelings toward her were to be protective and helpful. In most rpg's that would be the extent of Abby's role. It says volumes about the Witcher that by the end of the game, my thoughts and feelings about her completely changed. I still think my Geralt would have made the same choice, though.

magerette said:

I'm often clueless about getting jokes, so no worries. There isn't a huge difference between idealizing and idolizing anyway...

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You're definatly right about idealizing and idolizing being totally different. Let's put it this way then I have a lot of respect for women. Espcially the one that puts up with me

This thread sorta took on a life of its own concerning Abby being evil and hey ACE what happend to you, I thought I was backing up your theory

Anyways, what you guys said makes sense and if she really cared about the girl then she might of had second thoughts about selling the poison. Anyone who had morals would of thought twice about selling the poison to a distraught young woman (even if it might of been for those darn skaven) I think that and giving Alvin up were the two truly evil acts she did. She might of started out with good intentions with Alvin and maybe cared about the kid but when push came to shove, she dumped Alvin and headed for a hidey hole to escape the wrath of the mob.

Like mostly everyone else though I still would choose Abby over the mob every time. The definate lesser evil of the bunch.

What is evil, what is good ?

I think every person develops a very personal value system over the years - influenced by his family, school, milieu, religion, country, books and internet.

If I see someone (X) doing something (Y) - I always ask the internal question, what are the reasons and motives for X and what are the consequences of Y. I can then rate the motives, actions and consequences against my personal value system:

Unfortunately there are only two easy chains:
a) good motives / good action / good consequences -> good
b) evil motives / evil action / evil consequences -> evil

what about
c) good motives / good action / evil consequences -> ???
d) good motives / evil action / good consequences -> ???

and so on.

maybe even my personal value system is wrong and I have too adjust and learn.

To the Witcher:
The long discussion about Abby proves, that the developers of the Witcher did everything right. They created a wonderful ambiguous character, so that the players have to use their brain (value system!) to rate her.

Some key areas of ethical philosophy explore just those ideas you raise, but seeing them in a computer game is still only a dream at this point in time, though from memory, PS-T tried to address some of them!!

Prime Junta said:

You're conflating law and ethics.

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True, since that is my job as a Witcher.

Abby is evil if she magicked Odo into killing his brother

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Well I would have to agree with you Prime Junta, yet there is no evidence she did such a thing, except some drunk hick's claim, who doesn't have the slightest idea about magic or it's use. As I mentioned and afai can tell, she used the doll AFTER her lover's (Odo's brother) death to torment Odo's dreams because she was able to divine in someway Odo killed him and as the evidence points at least to me, Odo really killed his brother out of jealousy over Abby's love.

f she had a role in invoking the Hellhound. All of these things are suggested in the game

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I disagree, we specificity know the Helllhound was created by the wicked deeds of the men and for the most part it's These Very Same Men suggesting these things.

She is guilty of these things if she did them, irrespective of whether we can prove that she did these things

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Sounds good to me, yet there is NO evidence she did them only *The Accusations* she did them.

fatBastard() said:

Then Magerette was right, you ARE idolizing women to the extend that you can't see their flaws even when they're pointed out to you.

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Actually I just want something more as evidence than some drunk, dumbass, redneck telling me about magic dogs, mind spells and shit! hehe

Abigail could have tried to help her yet she didn't. Instead she provided the tools for the girl's death and that is not something a "Good" person does.

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We don't know Abby didn't try to help, nor why she sold her the potion nor the mental state of the girl when she bought the potion. Of course if Abby did all these things the drunk, rapist, murderous *dumb ass rednecks* (DARs) said then of course Abby must be evil. Yet according to RW and GW the women are in the defense, *acting out of defense* so even if decide to believe the murderers and rapist, this Still Removes Evil from the equation.

PJ has already mentioned most of the reasons why Abigail is not a nice person at all.....no doubt in my mind that it was a choice of the lesser evil.

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Understood, I just need evidence, not hearsay from a bunch of DARs, before I condemn a girl to be lynched.

The Squirrels are terrorists .....crush everyone not obedient to their Eternal Flame

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That's true and why the king, I and the rest of the mostly imperfect beings of all races let them kill each other off. You are more than welcome to take sides if you wish it's your game, but I tried to RP it as a Witcher.
Additionally it's not being discussed because it's a big issue, afaik it's because it's interesting and if I am trying to be neutral in the GW or in RW either place I need at least *some* proof to kill a GUY or a girl and this just happens to be about a girl, eheh.

See in my solution no one was condemned to die, everyone had a chance to start over anew and *then* the true evil exposed itself and I knew (well at least to me, since others don't see it the same way) I had made the right choice. This was especially true when it came to these DARs seeing guilt where there was none, i.e. she's a Witch so she's guilty.
There is no doubt the Men caused the Beast, nor is there any doubt the Men tried to lynch a girl because of their own guilt and delusions.

Prime Junta said:

She doesn't lose any sleep if some die through her actions

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Just to be clear here, no one died from any of her actions, nor is there any info of this. Even if your referring to the girl, we have no way of knowing, what/why she told Abby she was buying the poison. Nor that Abby knew she would poison herself. If you decide to make this leap then it's a choice not based on info we have in the game, well at least I have seen so far, since no one has shown any.

Hey I am sure it might be a valid RP path to take, playing a more evil Geralt, I am mostly referring to in game info.

magerette said:

Abby is about what happens to people when they become victims,..........

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Nicely put and I finally finished so you can talk about chap 4.

What I find interesting is how compelling we have all found this aspect of the game. It is a true sign of immersion into the world of The Witcher and I see that gut reaction I had was felt by many.

Prime Junta said:

(1) Just walk away.

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Problem is that doesn't work in RL either, as women base relationships on intimacy, which men rarely have a grasp on. I.e ever hear of women staying with men/husbands/boyfriends that abuse them, even when friends, family, medical and law enforcement warn them?
Women measure themselves by their relationships and if Abby, according to my game was born and raised there, at often times it dire emotional situations like what happened in the game which force people to change.

(2) When the girl came to buy poison from her, she could have talked to her. Asked what's happened. Had a good cry with her

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Again you don't know that didn't happen anymore than you know didn't happen.

(3) When asked to give up Alvin to the Reverend

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You can't expect her to know everything you think you know, especially since it didn't happen.

(4) With Odo and his brother..

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Say, what? Odo killed her lover and quite possibly fiance, since the drunk ass DAR said she was trying to take all his money, i.e by marrying.

fatBastard() said:

What Abigail sold the young girl was made for humans, ergo Abigail KNEW this was to be used to kill a human being

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No way, where you get that info?

Only a really incompetent healer would mistake ..........

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No one said she mistook anything, only offering possible realistic alternatives which have as much validity as your conjectures. The fact is that she could have come asking for poison with no intention of explaining or asking for Abby's advice. As I also mentioned it's much more likely given Abby's obvious respect for life since there is no evidence she ever took a life, unlike all the peoples whom are know to be guilty accusations.

Abigail KNEW what she sold the poor girl and she KNEW what it was to be used for.

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Objection, Conjecture.

1) It wasn't necessary.......2) It would serve no purpose.

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Where could she have run, how much money did she have, how many people did she have a choice to run to, how long would it take to get there and which was more dangerous route to take based on the money she had, means of travel?

skavenhorde said:

Anyways, it was a bad joke I have many of them and most of the time people don't get them

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Hehe, not so actually very funny.

can't justify her actions there.

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Problem is nether can they justify her being able to leave, afaik no one knows what happened, there maybe the Reverend tricked her so he could get another kid to sacrifice for the salamandra. Actually it's the most likely senerio given what we know about each of the NPCs, so they are mostly just trying to justify lynching a her with no evidence.

Prime Junta said:

I believe that if there's one lesson great religious thinkers.......

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That's most likely because you are an educated male, which she obviously didn't have the luxury of a formal education, while trying to dodge rapist, kidnappers and murderers. So even though you are well educated and have a good grasp of philosophy's nature of good and evil, you can't expect someone whom doesn't to act as you think they should. Not to mention you really don't seem to be accounting for the reality of the times portrayed, i.e. medieval times, woman traveling alone, most likely unable to defend herself or anyone to help her escape, those are realities, even today, in many places around the world.

So, in order to qualify as unambiguously "good," Abigail

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Only if you were Abby.

I believe it's the latter.

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Or as most people whom don't have control over most of how their life plays out, she did the best she could as an abused female, managing to learn a skill that also helped her defend herself and make enough money to survive.

*she could have asked.* That's all. "Ilsa, what's this poison for?

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Maybe she did, which is as accurate and true as you saying she didn't, therefore conjecture, so even you conclusion is baseless.

Genocide is justifiable in some ethical frameworks.

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None based on any type of Humanity, and certainly not one that has been verifiable as so, which makes it based on delusion.

ultimately the slaughter of everyone in the village.

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Actually that turned out to be not true. In my last game, it seemed so weird so I went and checked every previously inhabited house, which did have some people, so the mob was only part of the village, even Abby is back at her hut.

skavenhorde said:

This thread sorta took on a life of its own concerning Abby being evil and hey ACE what happend to you, I thought I was backing up your theory

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Sorry about that, I was away for a few days and only checked new article for the 5 or 10 minutes I had free and btw your doing a great job, as an example it took me 30 minutes for the first post to catch up and another 30 for this second post still with 3 more post to reply to.
Hehe, wait till you see the next thread.

HiddenX said:

If I see someone (X) doing something (Y).........

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Exactly and nicely put.

maybe even my personal value system is wrong and I have too adjust and learn.

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Nope not at all you have a good system, because you can provide individual adaptive analysis.

The long discussion about Abby proves, that the developers of the Witcher did everything right. They created a wonderful ambiguous character, so that the players have to use their brain (value system!) to rate her.

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That's true and I am beginning to think, their biggest mistake was using the wrong engine for a game design based on more non loading open world like Gothic, which would have allowed all their scripted scenes without the constantly forced loading for every little scenario or house.

Corwin said:

PS-T tried to address some of them!!

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Damn fine game, too bad we haven't had a graphics upgrade, which would let so many other people whom don't have any idea what or how good it was.

Cm said:

sign of immersion into the world of The Witcher

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Very true, but it's still hard to beat immersed women in chocolate!


It's nice to start over now that I have finished, with so many things to look out for after our debates.

Acleacius said:

Again you don't know that didn't happen anymore than you know didn't happen.

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That doesn't matter. If she did talk to her, that means she knowingly sold her the means to kill herself. If she didn't, that means she didn't care enough to find out. In either case, what she did was wrong.

Say, what? Odo killed her lover and quite possibly fiance, since the drunk ass DAR said she was trying to take all his money, i.e by marrying.

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Hey, that would actually explain the Odo voodoo doll rather nicely: Abigail used her magic to get Odo to kill his brother, and was working on further using it to get him to marry her. Another quick death, and voilà, Abigail the rich and well-established leading woman of the village.

I'm still curious why you're so intent on beating this horse, though; I have a feeling it breathed its last a while ago.

Also, you're still treating this like it was a trial, presumptions of innocence and all, instead of trying to understand the character and motivations of a fictional character based on the cues left in by the writers of the fiction. I believe this is the reason we're talking past each other.

To recap, the game *implied* or *stated outright* the following about Abigail:

* That she had something to do with Odo's murder of his brother (the Odo voodoo doll).
* That she sold poison to a suicide candidate, either knowingly, or was callous enough not care what the poison was for.
* That she gave up Alvin to the Reverend to save her own skin, and didn't show much regret over it.
* That The Beast has been seen looking in her window (Odo). Also, barghests always appeared outside her house; they are attracted to evil.
* That she bartered sexual favors for services.
* The way she deals with Geralt in Chapter 4.
* And then there's her trading card, of course.

Is there enough here to condemn her to death for something? Personally, I don't think so. But what kind of a character or personality do these things portray? Not someone who's very nice, in my opinion. A fighter, for sure, but someone who's fighting for herself rather than any larger cause, and someone who's not squeamish about the methods she uses in the fighting, or any damage she might cause to others through it.

Prime Junta said:

* And then there's her trading card, of course.

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Low blow with that trading card. I don't know what the artist or the devs were smoking when they decided "Hey, this depicts Abby perfectly."

PJ I know you probably only added that card in there as a joke but it was one of my pet peeves with the game. Not so much the cards but that card in particular. Last time I checked in the game Abby wasn't a succubus from hell or wiping blood all over herself and enjoying it.

I too thought the card was a little off-kilter. But maybe that's OUR false impression and that it does fit Abby's personality the way the devs invisioned?? I have to agree with PJ's conclusion using the evidence he just listed - seeing another way is possible for some I guess, but I just can't do it myself.

I found many "testimonies" lack objective proofs.

Prime Junta said:

* That she had something to do with Odo's murder of his brother (the Odo voodoo doll).

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Odo may be simply taking out of his guilt. Also, we know Abigail can make potions but we are not sure of her other abilities. Even if Odo is right, was she able to manipulate him through the doll?

Prime Junta said:

* That she sold poison to a suicide candidate, either knowingly, or was callous enough not care what the poison was for.
* That she gave up Alvin to the Reverend to save her own skin, and didn't show much regret over it.

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These ones are confirmed by Abigail herself.

Prime Junta said:

* That The Beast has been seen looking in her window (Odo). Also, barghests always appeared outside her house; they are attracted to evil.

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Is it true? To me, they seem to have appeared everywhere in the village.

Abigail is promiscuous but, in my play, I couldn't find solid enough evidence to let her killed by the more or less promiscuous people in the village. The ambiguity is calculated so that the players would feel more involved in the story, looking into information provided and thinking more.

In any case, I wonder how some people can idealize women in this game. Even in the opening movie, it's Adda who managed to scratch Geralt although she couldn't even touch him in the form of the striga. Geralt may be effective against monsters but not so if they are among human-beings especially in the shape of women. Abigail is just one of women who try to exploit his weakness.