Jeff Vogel - Innovation is not the only Path

I don't want to be a bully and put the guy down, but the problem is that he just keeps making the same game over and over. And as far as his claim that he wanted to take the best parts of all these classic games he loved, I see no evidence of that. Where are the living worlds of the Ultima series with complex character interactions, npc schedules, and interactive objects? Where are the challenging combat systems of the Wizardry and Bard's Tale series? Constant innovation was the hallmark of those classic games. The Ultima series alone between 4 and 7 each represented a leap forward for the genre, not some weird stagnant attitude that would have us replaying some remix of Ultima 3 for the next 40 years. At the end of the day, I don't think he really understood the nature of the genre at the time. I think he makes games that cater to a certain audience that cling to the false notion that at some point things in games were just great and everything that came after is awful. And good for him if he's made a living doing it, but I can't bring myself to take him seriously as a game designer. He produces nostalgia porn that shows little ability to improve upon what he does in even the smallest increments. And this isn't just about graphics, it's the gameplay as well.

ToddMcF2002 said:

Everything seems to be called trash here these days.

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Not everything. Trash is genre - several brilliant trash titles appeared recently.
But this guy's the same thing over and over cloning does not belong to trash genre.

Maybe you can chew the same bubblegum till you die. I can't, at certain moment I'll throw it away and pick another.

Loveblanket said:

I don't want to be a bully and put the guy down, but the problem is that he just keeps making the same game over and over. And as far as his claim that he wanted to take the best parts of all these classic games he loved, I see no evidence of that. Where are the living worlds of the Ultima series with complex character interactions, npc schedules, and interactive objects? Where are the challenging combat systems of the Wizardry and Bard's Tale series? ...

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He doesn't have a development team. I can't imagine he'd innovate as you are describing without one. Avadon and Geneforge is his new IP granted on engines with equivalent capabilities so you know what to expect there. Story, world building and tactics are what change across titles. That all said I wish he'd scale up a bit and "evolve" as you are suggesting. But I doubt he will. I think he has proven himself to be a bit thick headed about such things so its a "take it or leave it" situation. It will be interesting to see what the new engine brings to the table. As for the constant remakes that doesn't bother me as I never played Avernum so its all new for me. By the time he redoes Geneforge I'll be in the mood for a retread. And its all a welcome addition to iPad gaming for certain.

ToddMcF2002 said:

He doesn't have a development team.

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Neither does Stardew Valley creator. Yet that author won't clone SV. If SV2 ever appears, it won't be same shit new wrapping.

ToddMcF2002 said:

And its all a welcome addition to iPad gaming for certain.

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Did I mention phones shovelware strategy? If I didn't, there you go.

ToddMcF2002 said:

Everything seems to be called trash here these days. This place is has changed alot and not for the better. Anyway I'm gearing up to start Avadon 2. I really liked the first one.

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Hang on... don't write off an entire site because of differing opinions on very very subjective issues.

Entertainment is similar to art in the way it can be very subjective. If someone doesn't find the same enjoyment as another... thats ok. You'll likely find people pro and con on any game out there.

If you are just looking for blind unfettered adulation about a game then you are likely going to be disappointed (unless you to go Scam of the Avatar forums... couldn't resist).

For example, I truly thought Bloodlines was terrible. Its literally worshipped as a legend by others. And thats ok. I love lots of games that are abhorrent to others.. and thats ok too

It's not that the graphics are that his games are bad. It's the fact he is recycling them to keep income flowing without differing them very much at all. I think a lot more people would be accepting of them if they were not the same 3 or 4 games remastered over and over.

Some of them yes have similarities, some are quite unique. Nethergate springs to mind as one of those, and if you've not played it, you really should give it a shot. You might just love it.

Wisdom said:

Hang on… don't write off an entire site because of differing opinions on very very subjective issues.

Entertainment is similar to art in the way it can be very subjective. If someone doesn't find the same enjoyment as another… thats ok. You'll likely find people pro and con on any game out there.

If you are just looking for blind unfettered adulation about a game then you are likely going to be disappointed (unless you to go Scam of the Avatar forums… couldn't resist).

For example, I truly thought Bloodlines was terrible. Its literally worshipped as a legend by others. And thats ok. I love lots of games that are abhorrent to others.. and thats ok too

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The general sentiment on this site has turned sharply negative. Maybe its new voices filling the Dart void or more Codex refugees. But the site is loaded with Joxer acolytes

The way I see it is:

With a lot of games, if you get the urge to play them, you tend to have to replay the exact same game. "I feel like playing Plansescape: Torment again", so you load up Planescape: Torment again.

However, with Vogel games, when you get the urge to play Avernum again, instead of playing Avernum again, you play Avernum 2, because it's there and adds even a bit of bonus added variety.

They're really two versions of doing the same thing, but I'd say it is preferable to have the slightly altered version over a direct replay.

Carnifex said:

Some of them yes have similarities, some are quite unique. Nethergate springs to mind as one of those, and if you've not played it, you really should give it a shot. You might just love it.

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I have...but to be fair how long ago did he do something like that? 1998.

To be equally fair, I still play Wizardry, Might and Magic, Krondor, and lots of other games that came out prior to Spiderweb releases. A twenty year old product is a young one to me.

Did this article even need to be written? He could've just posted the title, "Jeff Vogel - Innovation is not the only Path" and anyone with enough investment to read it would already know what it said.

Shit, he could've just put "Jeff Vogel".

It would already help if he would elevate the GUI to todays resolutions. It stinks having to switch to prehistoric resolutions. Non-native res. are always an unsharp affair. Not everything has to be redesigned from scratch. There's e.g. good algortithms like waifu2x which he could use for upscaling his graphics.

This dev is brilliant, how he manages to milk his crowd of followers while telling them straight.

First point, he opted as graphics to make a point about not innovating when graphics is the sole sector that keeps innovating without a doubt and improving.

Second point, the best one, he managed to sell the idea that upgrading the graphics in his product would be innovation. His products graphics are fifteen years behind, upgrading them to what was done five ago would not be innovation.

Not only he wont innovate but also, he tells people he will stick to antiquated formats.

When entire societies were wiped out for doing less than this guy...

He certainly is brilliant, and knows his audience well. In return, he has earned such loyalty that most companies can only dream of having, the graphics may often look similar but the tales are often very different. If he takes a chance and decides to be bold and really change up on a future product, I'll be there with wallet in hand to support him and his company.

I don’t innovate, so innovation is not the only way.

Reminds me of Ubisoft saying 30fps feels better to play games at.

Carnifex said:

He certainly is brilliant, and knows his audience well. In return, he has earned such loyalty that most companies can only dream of having, the graphics may often look similar but the tales are often very different. If he takes a chance and decides to be bold and really change up on a future product, I'll be there with wallet in hand to support him and his company.

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Gurus too command submission into their worshippers up to the point they sacrifice their life to sponsor their worshipped one into his or her life style. Tells that and nothing more.

As to stories, this dev is unlikely to write anything that others have not already written with more talent.

There are obviously people who never grow tired of being said the same stories over and over again. Usually, they are the same who go havoc when the system of representation does not meet their tastes, when characters are the wrong gender or the skin colour.

ChienAboyeur said:

Usually, they are the same who go havoc when the system of representation does not meet their tastes, when characters are the wrong gender or the skin colour.

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Oh for sure, you often see Jeff Vogel fans at video game equality rallies. And their very length commentaries on how skin color or gender matters in a game...
In fact just the other day I seen a group of Vogel fans organizing a lawsuit demanding equal representation for all things furry. You know, being the very havoc causing fans they are....

There are also some people that seem to revel in repeating the same moronic comments. Vogel may not be your cuppa, but to say he cannot tell decent stories to influence the genre and get people both new and experienced to continue to buy his products is flat out wrong.

But Carnifex.. surely every developer needs to make his game acceptable to every player…
Thats the very definition of success