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February 10th, 2022, 11:36
Originally Posted by Redglyph View Post
Out of curiosity, why would you advise that? I see Wrath as a big improvement, and if @ToddMcF2002 knows the ruleset already, there's no issue with the learning curve (I doubt it would be an issue for most of us anyway).
For two reasons.

First, like JFarrell71 said, WotR is probably not the kind of experience he's looking for right now.

Second, Owlcat is still tweaking WotR. I understand the more notorious bugs have been fixed by now, but there's likely to be at least a few more patches before all is said and done. Not to mention DLC.
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February 10th, 2022, 12:55
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
For two reasons.

First, like JFarrell71 said, WotR is probably not the kind of experience he's looking for right now.

Second, Owlcat is still tweaking WotR. I understand the more notorious bugs have been fixed by now, but there's likely to be at least a few more patches before all is said and done. Not to mention DLC.
I see his comment now, though I don't agree or he didn't mean it was specific to the 2nd game. It's very similar in both games, and it's to be expected on a high difficulty setting - which can be changed any time. Unless it's different in the late chapters of Wrath and it becomes worse than Kingmaker's late chapters (Pitax, HatEoT, finale).

But there are more (stable) DLCs for Kingmaker, good point.

For the bugs, they must be close now, Kingmaker has its share of unsolved bugs too, or issues that were introduced on the latest patch long ago. At least they're working on Wrath.

Anyway, he's made his choice now.
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February 10th, 2022, 15:56
Pathfinder Kingmaker, most sublime BG1'esque game since BG1 - and, imo, better. Have yet to play WotR, but people say it's an even better experience than Kingmaker.
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February 10th, 2022, 16:42
Pathfinder Wotr is like everything I have always wanted to see in such a RPG, and more. Just the character creation module is orgasmic. It has an epic story, interesting dungeons, and so many possibilities.

I have two negative points for the game :

-> Not enough variety in the encounters. Demons, too many demons. I guess they couldn't escape this given the theme of game.
-> Strategic level at chapter 3 and 5 takes (imo) too much space and is low quality in comparison to the rest of the game.
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February 10th, 2022, 20:18
I've spent an hour or two studying all these classes. Wow. The thing I'm not looking forward to is all this base management stuff. Didn't like it in NWN2. Didn't like it in PoE1. If I could have ordered every visitor to Caed Nua be executed at the gates on sight and have their bodies dumped in the endless paths I would have done it in a heartbeat. Can't image I'm going to like that RTS crap in Pathfinder either.
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February 10th, 2022, 20:48
Yes, base management is a bane of the modern era unfortunately, it's everywhere pretty much whatever you choose. And yes, it's by far the suckiest thing in Kingmaker, an otherwise pretty good game.

Oh yeah, also, don't bother with the Varnhold DLC, it's quite a boring waste of time that could burn you out on the main campaign. Only play it once you've finished and if you still feel like playing more of the setting.
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February 10th, 2022, 21:22
Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002 View Post
I've spent an hour or two studying all these classes. Wow. The thing I'm not looking forward to is all this base management stuff. Didn't like it in NWN2. Didn't like it in PoE1. If I could have ordered every visitor to Caed Nua be executed at the gates on sight and have their bodies dumped in the endless paths I would have done it in a heartbeat. Can't image I'm going to like that RTS crap in Pathfinder either.
In the 2nd game, Wrath of the Righteous, it's even more insane, 186 classes and 13 prestige classes.

For the kindgom management (I suppose that's what you call "base management"), I would advise to select in the difficulty settings:
- invincible kingdom ON, to avoid losing the game because of nasty events
- kingdom management: NOT auto, which is known for breaking the main quest progression
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February 10th, 2022, 23:43
i would recommend Pathfinder: Kingmaker…… IMHO this is the true spiritual successor of Baldurs Gate….. It really captures the BG and D&D Magic……
POE 2 is from my POV tries "much too hard" to distinguish itself from BG and others by providing a "mature" and complicated story… And i really loathe this pirate setting……
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February 14th, 2022, 01:40
It's worth mentioning that Pathfinder: WotR is a very, very hard game on the two highest difficulties. It expects you to be fully buffed for every trash encounter.

That being said, the various difficulties work rather well, so all you have to do is reduce the difficulty a bit, and it gets a more trash, trash, trash, boss feeling.

My main gripe with both Pathfinder games are their pacing. It's similar to NWN2, where it was also an issue for me. All three games give the player an early boost, and then it's down to a level per 10-15 hours, which is a bit of a bummer given how good the character creation is.
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February 14th, 2022, 08:09
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
My main gripe with both Pathfinder games are their pacing. It's similar to NWN2, where it was also an issue for me. All three games give the player an early boost, and then it's down to a level per 10-15 hours, which is a bit of a bummer given how good the character creation is.
You do realize that with a game of this size, if you had kept leveling the way you do at the beginning of the game, you would be crazy high level by the end of it? (unless you get capped at mid game!).

If anything, I think it's a little too fast paced at the beginning. Low level DnD can be very fun but in Wotr, you basically skip that by going to the mythic & cie very quickly.
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February 14th, 2022, 08:19
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
My main gripe with both Pathfinder games are their pacing. It's similar to NWN2, where it was also an issue for me. All three games give the player an early boost, and then it's down to a level per 10-15 hours, which is a bit of a bummer given how good the character creation is.
That's how leveling in TTRPGs works. Pathfinder, D&D, most games. The more powerful you get, the more time it takes to take the next step up.
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February 14th, 2022, 14:31
Originally Posted by vanedor View Post
You do realize that with a game of this size, if you had kept leveling the way you do at the beginning of the game, you would be crazy high level by the end of it? (unless you get capped at mid game!).

If anything, I think it's a little too fast paced at the beginning. Low level DnD can be very fun but in Wotr, you basically skip that by going to the mythic & cie very quickly.
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
That's how leveling in TTRPGs works. Pathfinder, D&D, most games. The more powerful you get, the more time it takes to take the next step up.
I am well aware of the basics of RPGs, yes.

The problem is a combination of scope, performance, chores, trash fights and what not leading to slow pacing. I replayed WotR twice from scratch, and the final third or so five times (based on a few savegames I created towards the end), but I would have loved to try even more combinations, mythic paths and so on.

However, that is simply not an option in either game for me. Way too much filler content that's more or less mandatory. A few examples of games that work vs games that don't in that regard:

Works well for me
- Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 (lots of filler, but most of it is optional)
- The Elder Scrolls (same)
- Gothic (not a lot of filler; very concentrated)
- PS: T (same as Gothic)
- NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer (same as Gothic)
- Etc

Would benefit from less is more
- NWN2 main campaign (too slow, nothing is optional)
- The Witcher 3 (some of it is optional, but way too much isn't, such as 20+ hours of looking for the bard)
- Pathfinder (both of them)
- Divinity: OS2
- Etc

That isn't to say I don't enjoy games from the second list. I very much do. However, I really think they would benefit from spending slightly less resources on generating more filler content in favor of higher quality content, bug fixes or performance fixes. To me, replay value is a very big thing, and the slow pacing and sheer amount of mandatory filler content prevents me from replaying games that are otherwise excellent, which makes it my main gripe with those games.
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February 14th, 2022, 16:52
@Maylander that's all very well, but none of that has anything to do with the criticism I responded to, which is that you get levels frequently early on and then don't as the games go along.
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February 14th, 2022, 17:31
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
@Maylander that's all very well, but none of that has anything to do with the criticism I responded to, which is that you get levels frequently early on and then don't as the games go along.
I'm aware, and I don't mind that sort of leveling.

However, Pathfinder and NWN2 has a similar front loading of levels to most RPGs, but then it just stops, because the games are so massive, and the start isn't scaled for it.

It's as if the first 10-15 hours were designed to be the first 10-15 hours of a 50 hour game, not a 150 hour game. There's a difference between an incremental increase in the time it takes to level up, and every single one of the mid-game-levels taking longer than the first eight or so combined.
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February 14th, 2022, 19:13
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
I'm aware, and I don't mind that sort of leveling.

However, Pathfinder and NWN2 has a similar front loading of levels to most RPGs, but then it just stops, because the games are so massive, and the start isn't scaled for it.

It's as if the first 10-15 hours were designed to be the first 10-15 hours of a 50 hour game, not a 150 hour game. There's a difference between an incremental increase in the time it takes to level up, and every single one of the mid-game-levels taking longer than the first eight or so combined.
But it's not got anything to do with these computer adaptations. You say you know how the TTRPGs work, but you're showing that you don't. It takes, for example, 50,000 xp to get from level 10 to level 11 in Pathfinder. That's roughly the same number of xp it takes to get from level 1 to level 6. To get from level 16th to level 17th requires 410,000 xp, which is 100,000 xp more than it takes to get from level 1 to level 10. People like leveling up in the tabletop game too, but just like in the computer games directly based on them, those levels come along at a much slower pace as the campaign continues.
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February 14th, 2022, 20:03
Originally Posted by ToddMcF2002 View Post
I've been on an isometric tear lately. Finished Divinity Original Sin and Pillars of Eternity including expansions. I was going to try PoE2 next because I think the exploration faction of Pillars is pretty amazing and it feels like Baldurs Gate 1 more than any other title I've tried. How is exploration in Pathfinder? How does that compare? Just FYI I literally hated Baldurs Gate II although I completed it in the past including expansions. It felt more like a buff/debuff combat gauntlet simulator with marginal exploration. It had a good story but just a tiresome series of encounters. Just my opinion. Trying to avoid another BG2 experience. I like difficult encounters but I definitely enjoy exploration above all else. So Pathfinder, PoE2 or DoS2?
Lol I was excited by your post and was going to give you my opinion, but then you went and bad-mouthed the GOAT! No recs for you!

Well OK I will still chime in…

Since you just played PoE and DoS I'd go for Pathfinder next. Great game. And then you can move on to v2 of all of those franchises based on your preferences from the v1 games. For me PoE2 > PoE1 and DoS > DoSII. Haven't played Pathfinder 2 - top of my queue.
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February 14th, 2022, 23:05
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
But it's not got anything to do with these computer adaptations. You say you know how the TTRPGs work, but you're showing that you don't. It takes, for example, 50,000 xp to get from level 10 to level 11 in Pathfinder. That's roughly the same number of xp it takes to get from level 1 to level 6. To get from level 16th to level 17th requires 410,000 xp, which is 100,000 xp more than it takes to get from level 1 to level 10. People like leveling up in the tabletop game too, but just like in the computer games directly based on them, those levels come along at a much slower pace as the campaign continues.
In terms of XP, the increase is very dramatic, but encounter XP also increases, just not as much as the XP needed in terms of percentage, so the actual hours spent increases incrementally.

It doesn't actually take as long to go from 10 to 11 in tabletop as it does to get 1-6, even if the XP is similar, because quests and enemies reward a lot more XP. In fact, 1-6 often takes a number of sessions if it's supposed to be a long campaign. It's not like the first session is all: BANG 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and then all of a sudden it takes multiple sessions to go from 10 to 11.

The problem here is that it starts out with the pacing of a medium to long campaign, massively front loading the levels, and then it turns into a very, very long one.

Edit: I should probably reiterate that I'm talking about replaying. It's much more obvious then that the pacing is off compared to regular D&D or Pathfinder campaigns.
Last edited by Maylander; February 14th, 2022 at 23:26.
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February 16th, 2022, 03:47
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
- The Witcher 3 (some of it is optional, but way too much isn't, such as 20+ hours of looking for the bard)
You're only looking for Dandelion so you can find Ciri. Dandelion isn't easy to find, though, but you think Dudu knows where he is. Dudu is hard to find, too.
Spoiler – why
So, you spend quite a bit of time hunting him down. Somebody could help you with that if you find them a certain Gwent card….

The devs have a little fun with it:

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The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views….
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Last edited by Zloth; February 16th, 2022 at 03:49. Reason: Made image a link so the text is legible
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February 16th, 2022, 11:35
Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
You're only looking for Dandelion so you can find Ciri. Dandelion isn't easy to find, though, but you think Dudu knows where he is. Dudu is hard to find, too.
Spoiler – why
So, you spend quite a bit of time hunting him down. Somebody could help you with that if you find them a certain Gwent card….

The devs have a little fun with it:

Hah, yes, and that's why that particular part frustrates me a bit during replays. It drags on for way too long, it's mandatory and it's just something you have to do to get to what you really want to do.
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February 16th, 2022, 18:28
So back on topic.
I've only tried Pathfinder for 45 minutes but so far I'm not impressed.
  • First warning signs was showing me uncollected loot in the map.
  • Second bad sign was allowing me to collect that loot as I was forced to the travel map with no option to explore the mansion.
  • Oh and I can't rest prior to that travel.
  • 3rd bad sign, and this is a HUGE one - I have a count down timer for the main quest. This is something I abhor.
  • Final bad sign was the dinky map for the outpost I was forced, on rails, to visit as soon as the intro was completed. Like they put me on a bullet train.
I hope the whole game isn't like this because if it is its going to be a short experience.
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