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May 19th, 2022, 08:29
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
You claimed he left the company before they released a single game while conveniently leaving out anything about NWN (until after I called it out) which would make someone who didn't know any better think that was the entirety of his career with them. In short, it was both dishonest and blantantly false.

I'm sure it was completely unintentional though.
I said that he worked on BG in the same post. Of course he must of come back?

I said:
Yes.he worked in the Art department as one of 6 modellers and he wasn't there for most of the development. He actually spent more time as an uncredited QA than he did modelling. I'm not sure that qualifies as much of a contribution.
And yes, JFarrell is correct - Trent did minimal when it comes to BG1/2. His statement around Beamdog and then leeching off BG1/2/IWD and then releasing the abomination that is "Siege of Dragonspear" is correct.

Black Geyser is many times better than Siege of Dragonspear. Hell, even on Metacritic SoDS has a user score of 3.7 vs Black Geyser's 6.4.

My comment about the founder thing was a footnote (hence the "note:" bit). I didn't think it was particulary relevant to the discussion. The only Bioware founders of note that actually stuck around through the tough years were the two doctors - Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk. And no, I don't think being a founder is worth anything when they leave so quickly before the studio even did anything of note.

If I had to rate these BG1 clones/sequels/infinity engine style in order I would probably go with:
BG2 10/10
BG1 9/10
Pillars 2 8.5/10
IWD2 8.5/10
Pillars 1 8/10
IWD1 7.5/10
Black Geyser 7/10
Siege of Dragonspear 4/10

While Black Geyser may be near the bottom these are also some of my favourite games of all time.
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Last edited by bjon045; May 19th, 2022 at 09:36. Reason: dialled it back a bit
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May 19th, 2022, 09:10
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
I'm loving all the love that this thread is getting. It has the most posts of any actual cRPG thread in recent history.
Excluding the "End is Nigh" thread, it's got the most replies of any news thread in over 2 years, going back to the Game of the Decade awards and a BG3 gameplay reveal newspost, both in Feb 2000
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May 19th, 2022, 09:41
I only checked today and yesterday and saw the 'Building a new site' thread has more.

Edit
O, right forget it. You are talking about news threads. I only omitted the threads in my 'New posts' overview that have been going on for years.
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May 19th, 2022, 10:01
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
I said:
I know what you said. The post is still there, and what I pointed out about it still stands. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you weren't intentionally trying to be deceptive, but that doesn't change what you did or didn't say.

Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
And yes, JFarrell is correct - Trent did minimal when it comes to BG1/2. His statement around Beamdog and then leeching off BG1/2/IWD and then releasing the abomination that is "Siege of Dragonspear" is correct.

Black Geyser is many times better than Siege of Dragonspear. Hell, even on Metacritic SoDS has a user score of 3.7 vs Black Geyser's 6.4.
Cool story, but in reality, you don't have a clue what he did or didn't do because you weren't there. Also, no one ever mentioned SoD, and that's not even what JFarrell said.
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May 19th, 2022, 10:40
Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
Excluding the "End is Nigh" thread, it's got the most replies of any news thread in over 2 years, going back to the Game of the Decade awards and a BG3 gameplay reveal newspost, both in Feb 2000
Must be the GotY, then!
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May 19th, 2022, 10:47
Originally Posted by largh View Post
Must be the GotY, then!
Nah that's KOTC2 so far
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May 19th, 2022, 10:49
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
I said that he worked on BG in the same post. Of course he must of come back?

I said:


And yes, JFarrell is correct - Trent did minimal when it comes to BG1/2. His statement around Beamdog and then leeching off BG1/2/IWD and then releasing the abomination that is "Siege of Dragonspear" is correct.

Black Geyser is many times better than Siege of Dragonspear. Hell, even on Metacritic SoDS has a user score of 3.7 vs Black Geyser's 6.4.

My comment about the founder thing was a footnote (hence the "note:" bit). I didn't think it was particulary relevant to the discussion. The only Bioware founders of note that actually stuck around through the tough years were the two doctors - Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk. And no, I don't think being a founder is worth anything when they leave so quickly before the studio even did anything of note.

If I had to rate these BG1 clones/sequels/infinity engine style in order I would probably go with:
BG2 10/10
BG1 9/10
Pillars 2 8.5/10
IWD2 8.5/10
Pillars 1 8/10
IWD1 7.5/10
Black Geyser 7/10
Siege of Dragonspear 4/10

While Black Geyser may be near the bottom these are also some of my favourite games of all time.
Siege of dragonspear was alright in my opinion. Not as good as the rest of BG, but I'd give it a 6 out of 10.

And I think the enhanced editions were nice. Made playing the games a lot easier and with some modern improvements as well.
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May 19th, 2022, 11:20
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Cool story, but in reality, you don't have a clue what he did or didn't do because you weren't there. Also, no one ever mentioned SoD, and that's not even what JFarrell said.
I am basing my opinion on interviews with Trent and the manuals of all the games that I have on my shelf.

What JFarrell71 said was:

Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I'll say this: I give them credit for Black Geyser being an original game, albeit perhaps a highly derivative one. Better than Beamdog, who made all their money taking other people's work, slightly changing it, and re-releasing it.
I agree that his points are not all technically correct but I do agree with his sentiment. SoD is the only game they have created that is relevant to the discussion at hand - which is why I mentioned it. Every thing else is unrelated or JFarrell71 is correct. Beamdog had no involvement in the creative process at all. They most they did was on NWN1 where they remastered textures and made a reasonable amount of code modification. Beamdog hasn't created anything significant apart from SoD.
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May 19th, 2022, 11:36
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
I am basing my opinion on interviews with Trent and the manuals of all the games that I have on my shelf.
So am I.

Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
I agree that his points are not all technically correct but I do agree with his sentiment. SoD is the only game they have created that is relevant to the discussion at hand - which is why I mentioned it. Every thing else is unrelated or JFarrell71 is correct. Beamdog had no involvement in the creative process at all. They most they did was on NWN1 where they remastered textures and made a reasonable amount of code modification. Beamdog hasn't created anything significant apart from SoD.
Well I don't agree with his sentiment, and he wasn't correct. The fact that SoD is their only original game has nothing to do with my point which is that they were previously part of Bioware.
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May 19th, 2022, 14:17
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Well I don't agree with his sentiment, and he wasn't correct. The fact that SoD is their only original game has nothing to do with my point which is that they were previously part of Bioware.
I think I can see the confusion. You mean Trent and Cameron were, not the company itself. JFarrell's original post clearly specified Beamdog the company. Yes, under Bioware Trent and Cameron helped on some great games i.e. NWN1 and to a lesser extent BG1. I think it is a bit of a leap to suggest that what 2 individuals did (out of nearly a hundred) many many years ago under a different company is somehow comparable to a studio that just created a game.

I think it is questionable whether Beamdog's actual cRPG i.e SoD is better than Black Geyser though. Most of the general public disagree from what I have read. It would be interesting to see what the result would be if you actually polled members of RPGWatch although I suspect not many people have actually played either of them!
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May 19th, 2022, 14:36
Originally Posted by largh View Post
Must be the GotY, then!
Nah, that's what an extremely bad review will get, a lot of bashing and criticism. When the reviewer won't accept the criticism and keep the defensive posture, it's even better.
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May 19th, 2022, 14:44
Originally Posted by arthureloi View Post
Nah, that's what an extremely bad review will get, a lot of bashing and criticism. When the reviewer won't accept the criticism and keep the defensive posture, it's even better.
My comment was a sarcastic trap mostly aimed at all the bickering that has been going on in this thread
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May 19th, 2022, 14:50
Originally Posted by arthureloi View Post
Nah, that's what an extremely bad review will get, a lot of bashing and criticism. When the reviewer won't accept the criticism and keep the defensive posture, it's even better.
If people are bashing you for no reason, what postures do you have available?
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May 19th, 2022, 15:33
Originally Posted by Stingray View Post
Nah that's KOTC2 so far
I would agree apart from the fact that he still hasn't sent me my Steam key. Now that's some objective criticism!
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May 19th, 2022, 15:51
Supposedly if you email him and bug him about it, you get the key right away. Or so I read on some thread somewhere. I wasn't a KS backer.
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May 19th, 2022, 19:05
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
I think I can see the confusion. You mean Trent and Cameron were, not the company itself. JFarrell's original post clearly specified Beamdog the company. Yes, under Bioware Trent and Cameron helped on some great games i.e. NWN1 and to a lesser extent BG1. I think it is a bit of a leap to suggest that what 2 individuals did (out of nearly a hundred) many many years ago under a different company is somehow comparable to a studio that just created a game.

I think it is questionable whether Beamdog's actual cRPG i.e SoD is better than Black Geyser though. Most of the general public disagree from what I have read. It would be interesting to see what the result would be if you actually polled members of RPGWatch although I suspect not many people have actually played either of them!
I never suggested it's comparable to creating a new game. You seem to have a habit of misunderstanding people. Either that or you're trying to change the angle yet again.

I'm not interested in going in circles ad nauseam on this.. especially since it has nothing to do with the thread topic. Start a separate thread if you want to continue the discussion.
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May 20th, 2022, 01:04
I absolutely was trying to change the angle!

For clarity again this is what was said:

Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I'll say this: I give them credit for Black Geyser being an original game, albeit perhaps a highly derivative one. Better than Beamdog, who made all their money taking other people's work, slightly changing it, and re-releasing it.
It is a much more worthy conversation (and more on topic) to compare what Beamdog has created i.e. SoA vs debating the merits of Beamdogs business model. Which is why I was trying to steer the conversation in that direction. I agree with you and I'm not interested in going further down the current path unless the discussion changes direction.

If you think Black Geyser is a bad game then explain why. If you think it is worse than what Beamdog has produced then explain why. It is on topic to discuss the quality of Black Geyser to other games in the genre.

All Lackblogger and I have been asking for is for people to put some points up. That is what is worthy of discussion.
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May 20th, 2022, 05:25
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
It is a much more worthy conversation (and more on topic) to compare what Beamdog has created i.e. SoA vs debating the merits of Beamdogs business model. Which is why I was trying to steer the conversation in that direction. I agree with you and I'm not interested in going further down the current path unless the discussion changes direction.
Then perhaps you should have just said that to begin with instead of being so determined to go against what my point was?

As for Siege of Dragonspear, I'm afraid I can't comment on that yet. I've owned it since shortly after it was released, but I've yet to actually play it.
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May 20th, 2022, 09:32
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Then perhaps you should have just said that to begin with instead of being so determined to go against what my point was?

As for Siege of Dragonspear, I'm afraid I can't comment on that yet. I've owned it since shortly after it was released, but I've yet to actually play it.
Good point. It would of saved a lot of time

I've played Dragonspear but I haven't played enough of Black Geyser to be able to form a final opinion yet. If Black Geyser holds up I think it will be more enjoyable for myself. My experience of Dragonspear was heavily impacted by the fact that BG2 is my holy grail of cRPG's. Dragonspear tainted it because of some average writing and unfortunately bugs - although I played it on launch so some of the bugs I had were probably fixed by now. The location/art design was a let down as well, nowhere near as interesting as BG2. The hamfisted inclusion of a token trans character who was poorly written and basically introduced themselves as trans and said they used to be a man (something no trans would do). Finally, the ending was a let down. We all know how it is supposed to end but the conclusion added nothing to the overall bhaalspawn story.
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May 27th, 2022, 08:58
The game just received another update today and it has some more good improvements.

Ho there, adventurers!

As we continue our post-launch push to improve on all that you've asked, we've delivered two recent updates that deliver key requests: additional party banter and achievements.



Alongside this, we've added the Staff of New Dawn (an item offering resurrection) which sees those who carry it no longer needing to visit temples if a party member dies. We've also finished and extended the Hamlin, Bjalla and Jade companion quests. Take a look at the full notes below.

Tons of mini-banters added
Finished/extended the Hamlin, Bjalla and Jade companion quests
37 new Steam achievements added (the Arvex one can't be completed yet)
Aldnar cutscene (with potential battle) now respects your party formation
Multiselect item highlights in shops now disappear properly when switching item category
Quest inventory is now shared across party members
Items can now be moved to subcontainers (e,g, bottomless bags) via usual inventory "lift & drop" operation (there is no need to open the container UI any longer)
Added tutorials for infusion, world greed, Gerdra encounter, and point-of-no-return in Alastor
There are now five HP indicator labels (uninjured, slightly injured, injured, badly injured, nearly dead)
Minor chain lightning no longer harms party members and allies
Changed house name from "Family Home" to "Wilgo's House" for Estranged Sisters quest
Dozens of fixes in quests and dialogues
Staff of New Dawn (an item offering resurrection) added to Zelima and Ay'eda shops
Deron-Guld soldiers are no longer hostile after you side with Aldnar
Banter texts remain visible for longer times over characters for better readability
World Map tutorial now appears correctly when leaving Crone's Hut
Consumable item descriptions are now always displayed correctly
Gundemund's Freezing Tips now have proper AoE targeting marker
Gerdra messenger cutscene can no longer get stuck
Stunned or frozen creatures can no longer evade attacks
Wights in Xurzax battle were put closer so that they can notice the party
The Pact Prophecy can no longer be put back to its container
Fixed missing wardstone description image

As always and for all of you who continue to support Black Geyser and who continue to provide feedback here or on Discord, thank you so much!

/Black Geyser Team
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