Dragon Age - Rage of Mages

The thing is that you see the positive side of it, and I see the negative side of it.

I don't think any of us are necessarily right or wrong - we're just different.

As long as I don't believe that the business angle of approach to game design is the best one, I will speak against it when I see it happening to the detriment of the game experience.

Does this mean it would be better business to care about game design before revenue? Of course not.

The thing is, I don't give a shit about business. That doesn't make me blind to how things work, and I'm 100% fully aware that I can't change anything - so maybe you could argue it's wasted energy.

But I believe in my position, so I will keep it.

This Christian notion of enduring what I can't change is not for me. I know one thing, though, and that is that nothing is ever going to change if we all simply endure. Whether I make a difference or not, isn't really a concern I'm going to bother with.

Then why is BioWare even on your radar? They, and Black Isle, and Troika, and Obsidian, etc. etc., all had business models and wanted to, or did, or do, run commercially viable enterprises.

Tan and DAr, I have solution for you guys go to the Tactica: Maiden of faith forum here at RPGWatch You can have two games to look forward to Tan ( that is if you like party based CRPG's ) and I think it might right some things which you consider broken DAr...... gawd that made me feel a little like a certain Fable Peter.... better be careful about what I say

Prime Junta said:

Then why is BioWare even on your radar? They, and Black Isle, and Troika, and Obsidian, etc. etc., all had business models and wanted to, or did, or do, run commercially viable enterprises.

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I'm not sure what you're talking about.

You can't create this kind of game without money, and it's a balancing act.

Lord of the Rings is an example of a near-perfect balancing act, though I could write several pages of what's wrong with it, and what mass market appeal decisions were made to keep it commercially viable.

You must understand that my problem is at the very core of what's wrong, and the gaming industry is just one example and the issue is huge.

It just happens to be about games, and I do so love games.

Bioware is on my radar because there was a beep on it in the shape of a forum thread.

Those others you mention could just as well be there, and will be as soon as a thread about them is started.

I don't blame Bioware for focusing on money, I just don't like what it does to the game design. I think there's a middle-road and I think it's become invisible to most AAA developers, because they're caught in the race.

You don't seem to mind what it does, so that's nice for you. But note that I don't question that, I just acknowledge that we're different people with different ideas of what's beneficial and what's not.

DArtagnan said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

You can't create this kind of game without money, and it's a balancing act.

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Okay, then I must be misunderstanding you. I thought you were against the commercial motive in making games. I'm saying that the size of your budget determines the constraints under which you're operating, unless you have a rich sponsor. With a small budget, you need to please fewer people, which means you have more creative freedom; with a big budget, you need to please more people, which means you have to take more of their tastes into their account.

Lord of the Rings is an example of a near-perfect balancing act, though I could write several pages of what's wrong with it, and what mass market appeal decisions were made to keep it commercially viable.

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You think? I thought it was an OK adaptation of the books, but fell short in many, many ways. In particular, one of Tolkien's most central and most important themes entirely fell by the wayside: the tragedy of the Elves.

You must understand that my problem is at the very core of what's wrong, and the gaming industry is just one example and the issue is huge.

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That's it exactly -- I haven't managed to figure out exactly what you believe is the thing that's wrong, with the gaming industry or in general. Sometimes you say something that sounds like you'd love some kind of Communist system where the profit motive was completely absent and people did things out of pure passion or altruism; other times (such as at the beginning of the post I'm replying to) you cheerfully admit that the profit motive is a necessary element of most things and it's all a matter of balancing creative integrity against economic reality.

Help me out here, DA -- I would honestly like to understand what you think. It's just that either I'm really bad at understanding or you're really bad at explaining, or perhaps a combination of the two.

I don't blame Bioware for focusing on money, I just don't like what it does to the game design. I think there's a middle-road and I think it's become invisible to most AAA developers, because they're caught in the race.

You don't seem to mind what it does, so that's nice for you. But note that I don't question that, I just acknowledge that we're different people with different ideas of what's beneficial and what's not.

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Oh, there are a whole bunch of things I think BioWare could do without compromising its business model. Hiring better writers, for one thing, so their characters wouldn't be paper-thin, their plots clichéd, and their dialog wooden. However, I do get the impression -- and, mind you, this is just an impression since I don't actually understand what it is you're saying -- that we differ as to the depth of the problem.

From where I'm at, BioWare has a pretty clear mission in mind, and it's been hammering at that mission with great determination to succeed in it. That mission is to be commercially successful at making blockbuster cRPG's, with creative risks and artistic ambitions taking a backseat. Second, I kinda agree with them that if you want to make blockbusters, that's a compromise you're going to have to make -- unless you're working in the USSR and have sponsors high up in the food chain, like Tarkovsky and Solyaris (which, FWIW, I thought was a steaming pile of pooh).

So IMO BioWare's failures are mostly superficial, small things; it isn't, doesn't want to be, and can't be an art-house studio making creatively ambitious, risky projects for niche audiences.

Prime Junta said:

You think? I thought it was an OK adaptation of the books, but fell short in many, many ways. In particular, one of Tolkien's most central and most important themes entirely fell by the wayside: the tragedy of the Elves.

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That is a near perfect summary of how I felt as well. The only people who believe the LotR movies were great were those that never read the books.

Prime Junta said:

Or, alternatively, you lose interest and walk away. That's what happens to most people most of the time, anyway.

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I don't know what happens to most people most of the time if they're still more interested in the game than not..

Ever consider exploring ways to expand your tastes? Might give you other things to look forward to.

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You can't "expand tastes" just like that, whatever that means, as DArtagnan has nicely explained.

As interesting as this discussion is, we should probably just make a BioWare topic instead of derailing every single thread about Mass Effect 1/2 or Dragon Age: Origins.

This thread was originally about the mage class in Dragon Age, in case anyone forgot.

Maylander said:

As interesting as this discussion is, we should probably just make a BioWare topic

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That's actually a very good idea, in fact, I'm surprised no one has done it already.

Tan said:

You can't "expand tastes" just like that, whatever that means, as DArtagnan has nicely explained.

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You can, actually. It's not even difficult if you try it. All it means is trying different things, trying to take them at their own merits, and then deciding what you think of them. Games, broccoli, opera, French movies -- it's all the same thing; you can teach yourself to like almost anything if you put your mind to it.

That's simply not true PJ, I tried to like broccoli all my life since it should have a lot of nutrition but no matter how much I tell myself it is delicious and good for my health.... I am in the throwing up stage every time, the same goes for mackarel in tomatoe...............

Prime Junta said:

You can, actually. It's not even difficult if you try it. All it means is trying different things, trying to take them at their own merits, and then deciding what you think of them. Games, broccoli, opera, French movies — it's all the same thing; you can teach yourself to like almost anything if you put your mind to it.

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We're talking about games here. Sorry, I don't think I'd enjoy "barbie goes to ponyland" rpg even if I tried hard. It's not like I only played party based rpgs in my life. I played many games and my tastes have been formed. You might need to experiment some more, I don't.

GothicGothicness said:

That's simply not true PJ, I tried to like broccoli all my life since it should have a lot of nutrition but no matter how much I tell myself it is delicious and good for my health…. I am in the throwing up stage every time, the same goes for mackarel in tomatoe……………

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*Almost* anything, GG.

I used to feel like that about beetroot, btw, but nowadays I love it. (That's not how I went about learning to like it, though.)

Tan said:

We're talking about games here. Sorry, I don't think I'd enjoy "barbie goes to ponyland" rpg even if I tried hard. It's not like I only played party based rpgs in my life. I played many games and my tastes have been formed. You might need to experiment some more, I don't.

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It was just a suggestion, Tan. You seem very unhappy about the situation, and I was thinking of things you could do that would make you less unhappy: play the same old games over and over again, or find some other hobby, or try to learn to like what's out there. IMO all of these are better than obsessing about what does get made and then ranting about how UNFAIR it all is -- that just makes you even more bilious than before.

(There's always rolling your own, of course, but that's a very different kind of enjoyment than playing a game someone else has made.)

Prime Junta said:

It was just a suggestion, Tan. You seem very unhappy about the situation, and I was thinking of things you could do that would make you less unhappy: play the same old games over and over again, or find some other hobby, or try to learn to like what's out there. IMO all of these are better than obsessing about what does get made and then ranting about how UNFAIR it all is — that just makes you even more bilious than before.

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Why do you always have to include something insulting? That's not genuine suggestions you're giving, smartass, you want to start a fight. My life doesn't revolve around DA, Prime Junta, I have other interests as well.
And I don't know where the word "UNFAIR" comes from, since I don't remember ever saying anything related to biowhore or DA is unfair - stupid, idiotic, superfluous, yes - but unfair not. I'm merely pointing out things I dislike. Gee.

Tan said:

Why do you always have to include something insulting?

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I apologize. It's a bad habit I have, and one I'm trying to get rid of.

Also, I don't want to start a fight with you, and since it's clear that this discussion is headed that way, I hereby respectfully bow out of it.

Prime Junta said:

I apologize.

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It's ok.

GothicGothicness said:

That's simply not true PJ, I tried to like broccoli all my life since it should have a lot of nutrition but no matter how much I tell myself it is delicious and good for my health…. I am in the throwing up stage every time, the same goes for mackarel in tomatoe……………

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Try broccoli with melted cheese. Not as good for you, but makes it bearable.

Just got home from work...

Wow, this looks like it could be quite exhausting. I'm more than willing to explain my position - but it should be in a more appropriate thread.

If someone cares enough, I'll pop in

Ahhh man, I missed the fun. Someone was finally calling Tan out for only posting in DA/BG threads and I missed it. DAMN!!!

It is a little weird that DA is the focus of Tan's obsession, but if that is his only interest then good for Tan. He has about the same stamina as Wesp. Except in a "omg what did they do now?" sorta way. Maybe he can fix anything they broke like Wesp does with Bloodlines.

BTW that wasn't sarcasm, I'm being totally honest here. You seem to have quite the obsession with these two games. Why not use it for a force for good? Instead of making threads like that "R" one you made awhile ago. Who has that kind of dedication? Not I. You actually went through all that research for something as trivial as how many times they used the letter R.