Bioshock - Review Roundup

From what I see, what is gathering a lot of attention is the graphics. I might have peed my pants, but we'll see if this game is a game, and not just a pretty screensaver. But we'll see in 2019 when I own a computer that can play it. If only they'd advance gameplay as fast as they advance graphics we'd be in business.
 
but I do believe that the high scores it received were deserved

Scores that high can not be deserved. It's a conceptual impossibility.

Now, you may well dislike Bioshock when it comes out.

That's not the point. This does not reflect on the game. It doesn't even reflect on the company. It reflects, very badly, on the media.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,558
Scores that high can not be deserved. It's a conceptual impossibility.

I feel like the media have backed themselves into a corner in some ways - games like HL2 and FEAR and Oblivion got scored too high and now everything else is following suit. Each of those games has glaring flaws as well as many great things, but certain enough flaws to keep them from the alter of 'ZOMG TEH PREFUCT' ...
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,951
I feel like the media have backed themselves into a corner in some ways - games like HL2 and FEAR and Oblivion got scored too high and now everything else is following suit. Each of those games has glaring flaws as well as many great things, but certain enough flaws to keep them from the alter of 'ZOMG TEH PREFUCT' ...

Maybe JemyM is one of the critics on their scoring team. ;)
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,335
Location
Florida, US
Why is it that every time when a game gets positive criticism and high ratings, it's suddenly "hype"? Maybe Oblivion made you bitter, but I do believe that the high scores it received were deserved. It was a solid, polished game. Maybe not the type of game you hoped for, but it broke new ground, was varied and had great gameplay. It might not have been the most creative work ever, but still.

Depends pretty much on the point of view - for you a solid, polished game might deserve a 10/10, for me "solid" and "polished" a criteria that are the absolute minimum for a game. I have no doubt that Bioshock will be a rather solid and polished game, but in my opinion a linear shooter (and obviously the game is very linear), does not deserve a 10/10 because for me linearity is a flaw in design - a big one.

You make a a shooter with kick ass gfx but basicaly no content other than killing enemies in various ways you'll get a 10/10. You make a rpg with decent gfx and tons of content and you'll get 6/10, 7/10 if you're lucky.
 
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
758
I think the issue is that a lot of gaming journalists have moved to a conceptual level where 10/10 represents "game of the year," not "this game is flawless."

The problem is this concept has not taken hold, and I doubt it will. We're raised and schooled to understand an A+ or 100% or 5/5 (for Russians) means "you made no mistakes, this was flawless." Most of us know when toiling away at the university that this is an impossible grade to get (except if the uni grades on the curve, obviously).

But yeah, they're backed into a corner now, with nowhere left to go. This has been coming from some years, with the grasping at higher numbers to be able to praise the next generation of games more. I never saw that need of doing that, but apparently gaming journalists do.

Maybe it's a part of the wider failing of gaming journalism, maybe it's just the death of the broken rating system. We'll see.
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,558
Maybe JemyM is one of the critics on their scoring team. ;)

THREAD SPILLOVER ALERT!!!

Yeah, well, Bioshock might make you pee and poop your pants according to some, but doesn't turn you into a blubbering mess like Final Fantasy, and is therefore inferior and uninspired ... how could anyone even *bother* with these non-FF trivialities ...


:rotfl:
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,951
its good to see the bioshock haters have retuned after finishing their back to school shoping and have some time to kill. let it all out, because in a few days time it won't matter when the majority are playing and enjoying bioshock are the rest are left playing and enjoying, something else;)
 
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
812
Location
standing under everyone
Depends pretty much on the point of view - for you a solid, polished game might deserve a 10/10, for me "solid" and "polished" a criteria that are the absolute minimum for a game. I have no doubt that Bioshock will be a rather solid and polished game, but in my opinion a linear shooter (and obviously the game is very linear), does not deserve a 10/10 because for me linearity is a flaw in design - a big one.

You make a a shooter with kick ass gfx but basicaly no content other than killing enemies in various ways you'll get a 10/10. You make a rpg with decent gfx and tons of content and you'll get 6/10, 7/10 if you're lucky.

Linearity may be a design flaw for (a certain type) of RPGs, but you can't say that for shooters. Linearity is inherent to most of that genre. That you don't like that (and therefore most shooters) doesnt make it a flaw. That there are indeed non-llinear shooters, doesn't mean that linearity is necessarily a design flaw either. Its a design decision. You can certainly strive to make a "perfect" linear shooter (like Half life, or maybe this Bioshock) just as well as you can try to make a perfect platformer, arcade fighting game, and ping pong simulation, etc. Its silly to ask for every game to incorporate your preferred design, or expect review scores to take into account that it cant be played in everyones preferred manner.

I do agree though with your final comment. That Gfx are seen as a necessity for almost any game is bad. Although its not entirely true. I just read very positive reviews on defcon on several major sites, and that game is certainly not about eye candy. But in general its unfortunately true. I guess its in line with mainstream expectations though, which in the end is all what scores from the major sites really express: to what extent does the product conform to or exceed mainstream expectations to this game?
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,508
anything that sells good which is not a troo RPG is the enemy

good one samhain

Linearity is never bad a thing if it's compelling. Games without a certain amount of that tend to lose focus, like Morrowind. I almost never play games twice so I never have a reason to go back to check what I missed anyway.

Keep in mind too that this is review based on XBox 360 games. I believe Halo2 and KotOR got this kind press simply because there was a lack of quality games for them at the time.

Also, the large RPG/Story element gives the FPS crowd a breath of fresh air. That's the majority of players and reviewers out there.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
5,215
Location
The Uncanny Valley
Sorry, Brother None, I just don't agree with you. Separate the point that the media has arguably inflated scores* and whether or not Bioshock deserves the current scores (can't tell - haven't played it) but on the specific point that these scores are "conceptual impossibility" just doesn't fly for me.

I'm not saying 10/10 should be given lightly - or even that a game has ever been made that deserves 10/10 (including Bioshock, perhaps) - but explain why it is conceptually impossible.


*I can understand the source of this sort of sentiment (IGN's 9.9/10 for Jade Empire seems a classic example) but I just can't come up with solid evidence across the board. I don't really like sites like Gamerankings and Metacritic but I can't see a universal pattern that the gaming media consistently overscores compared to the "general" public. Now, I accept "voters at Gamerankings" is hardly a perfect methodology but I can't come up with a better way of comparing the press to Joe Public.

An alternative argument is that Joe Public is wrong, or inflating scores as influenced by their reading of the media. The problem I see with that is a score is only meaningful in context - and we all know the know the context is that 7/10 is a competent but "average" game. Forcing it to 5/10 doesn't communicate more clearly - it says "this game is shit". And that isn't a benefit.

-------

Oh, and I agree with GhanBuriGhan and others on the linearity thing. It just isn't a design flaw in a shooter.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
11,842
Location
Sydney, Australia
Sorry, Brother None, I just don't agree with you. Separate the point that the media has arguably inflated scores* and whether or not Bioshock deserves the current scores (can't tell - haven't played it) but on the specific point that these scores are "conceptual impossibility" just doesn't fly for me.

I think you missed it by a half-inch. I'm not talking about "right" or "wrong." See what I explained here:

I think the issue is that a lot of gaming journalists have moved to a conceptual level where 10/10 represents "game of the year," not "this game is flawless."

The problem is this concept has not taken hold, and I doubt it will. We're raised and schooled to understand an A+ or 100% or 5/5 (for Russians) means "you made no mistakes, this was flawless." Most of us know when toiling away at the university that this is an impossible grade to get (except if the uni grades on the curve, obviously).

The problem is not that Bioshock or even Jade Empire would not deserve a 10/10 score from the conceptual basis of "10/10 represents game of the year material." From the standpoint "best game this year," I could excuse Oblivion or Gears of War getting a 10/10, because they were hyped, but well-made games, and arguably the best of their years (arguably, not solidly).

But like I said above, the problem is that readers aren't used to the concept of 10/10 representing a statement about GotY status, and that's what I meant with "conceptual impossibility." For the average reader, and especially the kind of reader that's not immersed into the media like you, I or the average active poster here, 10/10 will click with the only source of reference he has, which is high school to university grading system. In that conceptual system, a 10/10 either represents the highest single score of the year (when grading on a curve) or a flawless game (when grading without a curve).

Either one is a conceptual impossibility, because:

a) grading on the curve doesn't apply, because on the one hand multiple games get 100% even within a year, and the majority of readers doesn't think on a curve

b) flawless products don't exist. A 10/10, 5/5 or A+ (or whatever system your country uses) is only a possibility on basic tests and becomes impossible on any mature non-curved system (university level)

I'm not saying it's conceptually impossible from the viewpoint of either an experience reader who has got used to the media system or from the viewpoint of journalists themselves, I'm saying that for the average consumer this rating system is inherently flawed in representing the actual quality level of the game (which might well be 90%+, but that's not the point)

You are looking at it from your angle, in which the de facto rating system goes from 5/10 to 10/10, instead of 0/10 to 10/10. This is only acceptable to experienced readers, it is downright deceitful to others. It's also limited because it doesn't leave any rating room beyond games that are going to average 98%+ unless you reset the ratings each year (which is a ridiculous concept)

If I have to define why 100% is conceptually impossible in shorthand, it would be that 100% for a normal reader represents that the game has no flaws (which is an obvious impossibility, because not all elements can please everyone) or a game that could not possibly be topped by following games (you've got to be kidding me).
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,558
OK, I get where you are coming from. I don't entirely agree but I understand your point of view.

We use a 5/5 system and a "perfect score" isn't perfect:

5 – An outstanding game that will be remembered as a classic. A score of 5 indicates a game that is equal to the best gameplay available in the genre at the time of writing. It is, however, important to understand this does not represent an absolutely flawless game.

As the scoring gets more granular, this becomes harder. I don't have a problem with 10/10 if used carefully but 10.0/10 (as in 9.8/10, 9.9/10 then 10.0/10) or even the very silly 99.99% is a different scale.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
11,842
Location
Sydney, Australia
Like I said (lots of editing above), I think the main problem, as some mainstream journalist (don't remember who, probably someone from Gamespy or Gamespot) once explained to me, is that the top rating is reserved for top games. In other words, 10/10 or, for you guys, 5/5 represents top-notch games, but not necessarily perfect games. The reason that doesn't make much sense at a glance, especially if you go into more detailed % or *.*-based systems, is that all sense of proportion and judgement is lost. There's no difference between 10/10 representing "perfect, flawless, best game ever," or just "GotY, great game, best of the year," or even just "really a top-notch game." Gaming journalists, in this way, make themselves incapable from distinguishing great from really great to super-great, because all the greats are shoved up to an artificial roof of 100%

Partially this is an inherent problem of any rating system. Partially it's the big difference between how journalists write down 100% and how readers read it
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,558
for me "solid" and "polished" a criteria that are the absolute minimum for a game.

And still not just every game company can pull this off. It's actually not very easy to do this right, to do a game right. Very few games have the necessary polish to reach your "minimum" and it certainly isn't trivial, but very desirable and it makes a game a joy to play rather than a chore. A game deserves points for pulling it off.

in my opinion a linear shooter (and obviously the game is very linear), does not deserve a 10/10 because for me linearity is a flaw in design - a big one.

And I can't disagree with you more. I've see it more often in reviews, reviewers calling linear design a flaw. I call it a choice. Some people may actually enjoy a linear game, you know? It's a taste. I wouldn't want all games to be non-linear, to be honest. Sometimes we just want to simply blast away rows after rows of bogeys until we get to that "Congratulations! You have won!" screen.

You make a a shooter with kick ass gfx but basicaly no content other than killing enemies in various ways you'll get a 10/10. You make a rpg with decent gfx and tons of content and you'll get 6/10, 7/10 if you're lucky.

No. Usually, the 6/10 will be because of other areas where the game just doesn't really score. It may well perform brilliantly in one of the areas that you enjoy, but for a review to award 10/10 (and I agree with Brother None, I think it was? It's a bit of an impossibility to give a perfect score, depending on what the criteria for "perfect" are) needs to have an overall picture of quality, thoughtfulness, creativity, innovation and polish. And I know some of you people enjoy your indie games for certain niche qualities, and they may be excellent fun, but today you need the full package to make an impression. Unfortunately, it's been this way for a while with any media when it became easier and easier to produce decent result at home in graphics design, music recording, video editing, etc.

We, the people, just as a whole want to approach perfection more and more and we should just try to approach 10/10 instead of getting there. So Bioshock may well be a 9.9999/10, but 10/10 is always impossible. Know what I mean.

Am I ranting?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
2,915
Location
The Netherlands
But yeah, they're backed into a corner now, with nowhere left to go. This has been coming from some years, with the grasping at higher numbers to be able to praise the next generation of games more. I never saw that need of doing that, but apparently gaming journalists do.
How many years? Are you just referring to "high-scoring" games, or all of them? Dropped into this graph, Bioshock would look less like the culmination of an upward trend than a ridiculous outlier, but I'm not sure exactly which scores you think are being inflated. Can you be more specific?
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
321
Um... what, other than the camera angle, do Bioshock and Oblivion have in common?

They are both console games first and foremost.
 
Joined
Nov 28, 2006
Messages
339
how the hell is bioshock a console game first and foremost ace.
last i checked all of irrationals games prior to bioshock have been solely on the pc. and bioshock is the spititual succesor to 2 pc games.
sharp
 
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
812
Location
standing under everyone
how the hell is bioshock a console game first and foremost ace.
last i checked all of irrationals games prior to bioshock have been solely on the pc. and bioshock is the spititual succesor to 2 pc games.
sharp

Easy, dude, easy ;) .

First of all, the ties to any previous games are basically non-existent except for "inspiration"...
IGNPC: Is Bio a true sequel or prequel to System Shock 2, or is it a spiritual successor?

Ken Levine:
BioShock has absolutely no relation to the System Shock series in terms of the intellectual property, characters, settings etc. However, it is inspired by the open-ended design principles pioneered by Looking Glass. Irrational is dedicated to maintaining that tradition.
http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/556/556421p1.html

... and secondly the X360 has been the lead platform all along...

Everyone knows Irrational Games' president and lead designer Ken Levine, who's been heading the Xbox 360 version of Bioshock. Close to no one knows Joe McDonagh, who is a Senior Designer on the PC version. With his colleagues at Irrational Games Australia, he has applied many changes to the PC version. Jörg Langer talked to Joe in Munich after playing the nearly finished game.

Joe McDonagh: There are very substantial gameplay differences between the two versions. Look, our heritage is PC. We've taken the differences between the two platforms very seriously. We look at history, we look at other PC/console games like Deus Ex 2. We realized that you need to treat them differently. Not only in terms of the balance, but also in the interface. We have a very different interface for the PC version of Bioshock, using much more drag and drop functionality. In terms of the gameplay, we've rebalanced all of the enemies to make the PC version harder. We've taken Softlock out of the PC version. You need this "locking on" with a console, because it's so much harder to aim at something with a game pad, but you don't need it on a PC. But of course, the Xbox 360 version still is the lead version of Bioshock.
http://www.joergspielt.de/ed-orman-english/
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,201
We, the people, just as a whole want to approach perfection more and more and we should just try to approach 10/10 instead of getting there. So Bioshock may well be a 9.9999/10, but 10/10 is always impossible. Know what I mean.

Am I ranting?

I know what you are saying but I also think you are wrong. 10/10 doesn't necessarily mean "perfect". Look at the snip of our review criteria above - 5/5 simply doesn't mean "perfect" - it means the very best quality of that genre at the time, which Bioshock may or may not be.

If our review score was, say, 2/2 or 3/3 (perhaps equating to crap, mediocre and great), you wouldn't say "you can't have 3/3 -- that's impossible perfection!". At what point do you draw a line and say it's impossible? 4/4? 5/5? 8/8? 10/10?

The more granular, the less abstracted. Sites that use decimal points (9.99/10) have less abstraction, so it gets harder to justify obviously.

Here's what Eurogamer says:

A score of ten reflects a game that, within the reviewer's estimation, is something you must buy: this is the message we're trying to convey. On a basic level it's almost certainly the best quality game ever seen within the context of its genre, and that's why Eurogamer doesn't dish them out very often. A score of 10 usually applies to less than a trio of games in any given year.

But all 10s are not born equal. For starters, you might consider that a ten in the RPG genre still isn't as appealing as an FPS that we scored an eight, or be mystified how we could score a football management game a nine when we only gave that survival-horror game you loved an eight. The best rule is to simply rate like with like, and use your own personal taste barometer to gauge whether the genre is of interest to you. Even so, if you're new to a particular genre then something scoring a ten is a very safe bet indeed. As a starting point, the message is you can't get a better game of this type.

Let us make absolutely clear that a 10 is not and probably never will be "the perfect game". There's always something criticisable about a game, however small.

A 10 will inspire the reviewer because it gets so many things correct. It will be something truly groundbreaking and aesthetically successful, be consistently enjoyable, get the balance right in difficulty terms, be technically very impressive, and be polished to a shine. It will leave the player in no doubt that they're playing something special right from the word go and will continue to inspire and amaze throughout. As we've said, this doesn't mean it's perfect, and we'll be sure to say where it goes wrong too, but maybe those niggles are just so minor that you can let it off. Look at anything under a microscope for long enough and you'll see the flaws. But would you kick a supermodel out of bed for farting?
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
11,842
Location
Sydney, Australia
Back
Top Bottom