What games are you playing now?

JDR13 said:
What did you think of DX:MD? I'm assuming you played it.
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Yep, played and finished it.

Well, in gameplay terms I think it's better than DE:HR - because it has better systems and toys. However, in terms of the story and level design - it falls behind.

Not because the actual levels are worse - and in fact, I think some of them are better. But there's a distinct lack of visual variety - because the majority of the game takes place in two large levels. The game is in desperate need of, at least, 2-3 more distinct story levels.

The actual story is also disappointing and it ends way too abruptly.

Overall, though - it's not that far from DE:HR - because the gameplay is so satisfying.
 
Yes that video matches my observation but that doesn't mean the ai is sophisticated.
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Btw the video explains this is not dense ai - it has a behavioral tree and as the game progresses more of the tree is unlocked. This simulates the alien learning and increase skill but is not quite the same thing. Specifically their method is much easier to implement and basically means when you reach fixed points in the game the behavior will change regardless of what you have done previously.

I really am not overly impressed by the alien's ai but maybe i am mistaken in its complexity but I have my doubts that is is overly complex.

BoboTheMighty said:
This cuts down to the core:

https://youtu.be/Nt1XmiDwxhY?t=300

By "cheating", it's not a bad thing as it sounds…it is leashed to the player, but the game requires it.

Only thing they could have toned down, is when player transitions between levels and it right away follows.
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you said:
Yes that video matches my observation but that doesn't mean the ai is sophisticated.
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Btw the video explains this is not dense ai - it has a behavioral tree and as the game progresses more of the tree is unlocked. This simulates the alien learning and increase skill but is not quite the same thing. Specifically their method is much easier to implement and basically means when you reach fixed points in the game the behavior will change regardless of what you have done previously.

I really am not overly impressed by the alien's ai but maybe i am mistaken in its complexity but I have my doubts that is is overly complex.
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We're still waiting for an example of stealth game AI that's much more impressive to you.

Oh, that's right - the one in Shadow of Mordor where they spot you, search for you - and then stop, right? Because that's so much more sophisticated than the system in Alien Isolation!

I could be mistaken, but I don't think you have a clue about what it takes to create a sophisticated AI that also makes for a fun and playable game ;)

Otherwise, please prove us wrong and give us an example with details of how another stealth game AI is more sophisticated. Because if you don't, what you're really saying is that you weren't impressed - but you don't actually know a single stealth game that has a more sophisticated AI.

So… What game has a more sophisticated AI that tracks you in a more convincing way?
 
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Moriendor said:
That is quite true but we are currently at a point where I have the impression that absolutely ZERO effort gets put into AI.
The original Gothic from 2001(!) still stands out in many positive ways and even PB themselves have never reached that level again (because they consider it "nice to have" and not essential).

This starts with simple combat AI. In most RPGs/games nowadays mobs just stand there, fight back a little and let themselves be killed. Where is at least some basic AI like fleeing when the player is clearly more powerful? It's a rare sight these days. Let alone advanced AI where enemies work together or move from cover to cover etc. -
It's sad to think that a game like F.E.A.R did a pretty good job in that regard all the way back in 2005(!) and in spite of magnitudes more processing power today --> nothing.

Or how about some decent gameplay AI like NPCs defending their property? In most games in the last 30 years you can still pillage and loot at will right under the nose of a "guard". What are they "guarding" in most games anyway? They are just deco usually.
Or how about reactive NPCs so if you are a strong high level guy with decent gear then a NPC might be auto-intimidated without the need to click a dialogue line that says "[intimidate]". Move it from text to gameplay. Make it natural and a part of the gaming experience. That kind of thing. That's what I would like to see.

Well, and as far as story is concerned, I would just like to see more intelligent and emerging plots. Don't pull a Xardas and tell me in the first 30 seconds of the game that I have to find the Sword of Innos and defeat the dragons. That's kinda boring.

Or don't pull an Elex where you tell me within the first minute of the game who the traitor is or do silly shit like having an Alb elite execution squad that does bother to check whether I survived the glider crash but then totally fails to check whether I survived their shots and falling off that cliff (why are TWO elite Albs incapable of delivering fatal shots at nearly point blank range anyway?).

Instead let's do more stories that are like an onion where you slowly unravel the plot layer by layer. Let's have some mystery and keep some secrets until the very end.

A positive example again: Gothic 1 which gave you only a very basic premise and very humble goals at first like finding your place within the penal colony. Only bit by bit did the greater story and the breakout opportunity reveal itself subsequently. That's the way I like it.

Or Mass Effect 2: Great foreshadowing in that one. You knew that Cerberus was using Shepard for their goals. You knew exactly you were being played. But what for? What purpose? What the hell was the Illusive Man up to? This is the kind of mystery in a game that is very motivating. It makes you want to keep pushing and get to the bottom of things.

Well, that's what I would like to see in terms of AI and story advancements anyway but I know that, realistically, we ain't gonna get any of that in a world where Overwatch, Destiny, LoL, GTA Online, Dota 2 and CSGO reign supreme because barely anyone, and especially not those with the funds to make a real difference, give a crap about single player games anymore, let alone story-driven ones with decent AI (too hard, too much work).

/sadpanda ;)
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Agree on everything you said - absolutely my thoughts too!
 
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Get off your ass. I did not say that was an example of good ai i said i liked the behavior. Almost no game has 'good' ai but some have behavior that I think is decent. There is a difference.
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To give you a simple example i wrote a real time ascii game (in the good days of crt) 30 years ago. The game path finding was exact but the rules for bot travel were simplistic. The players thought it was amazing and suspenseful but the logic to produce that suspense was 20 lines of code. I'm not going to go into detail how it worked but I see very similar behavior by this ai you consider to be 'brilliant'. The behavior is extremely mechanical and simplistic so I'm a bit surprise that you consider it fantastic.
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You keep asking for an example. One of the problem is the number of explicit stealth games is very limited; largely consisting of dishonored, thief series, styx and a few others. Almost none of the games have 'hunters' that combine with stealth though a few use stealth as a small portion of the game such as shadow or morder.
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imho this game is cheap logic and I would be shocked if it were more than several hundred lines of dense code (a good coder can generate a more than thousand line of correct dense code a week). Anyways I think we've taken this as far as we can. You are welcome to your opinion and I'll keep my opinion.

NewDArt said:
We're still waiting for an example of stealth game AI that's much more impressive to you.

Oh, that's right - the one in Shadow of Morder where they spot you, search for you - and then stop, right? Because that's so much more sophisticated than the system in Alien Isolation!

I could be mistaken, but I don't think you have a clue about what it takes to create a sophisticated AI that also makes for a fun and playable game ;)

Otherwise, please prove us wrong and give us an example with details of how another stealth game AI is more sophisticated. Because if you don't, what you're really saying is that you weren't impressed - but you don't actually know a single stealth game that has a more sophisticated AI.

So… What game has a more sophisticated AI that tracks you in a more convincing way?
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you said:
Get off your ass. I did not say that was an example of good ai i said i liked the behavior. Almost no game has 'good' ai but some have behavior that I think is decent. There is a difference.
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Ah, so you mentioned it for no relevant reason. Cool! ;)

I'm just asking for a single concrete example that does what Alien Isolation does in a better and more convincing way.

To give you a simple example i wrote a real time ascii game (in the good days of crt) 30 years ago. The game path finding was exact but the rules for bot travel were simplistic. The players thought it was amazing and suspenseful but the logic to produce that suspense was 20 lines of code. I'm not going to go into detail how it worked but I see very similar behavior by this ai you consider to be 'brilliant'. The behavior is extremely mechanical and simplistic so I'm a bit surprise that you consider it fantastic.
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Oh, I get it. Because you once wrote an amazing game that the world thought was brilliant (that no one has ever heard of) - but the code was actually really simple - then it means Alien Isolation is exactly like that - and you could easily have made it yourself, right?

Yeah, ok - that seems very likely. You have me convinced! ;)

Well, you have me convinced that you're even more ignorant than I thought when it comes to AI.

In any case, what does it matter if the code is 20 lines or a million lines? What matters is how the game plays and if the Alien - in this case - is unpredictable and scary. If you can do that in 20 lines of code - then I think you're in the wrong line of work ;)

If these "players" thought your code was brilliant - then it must have worked for whatever it was trying to do. That's what I call good code!

That said, you've still utterly failed to give me an example of AI that does what Isolation does in a better way.

You do remember having said other stealth games impressed you much more, right?

I'm still waiting…

you keep asking for an example. One of the problem is the number of explicit stealth games is very limited; largely consisting of dishonored, thief series, styx and a few others. Almost none of the games have 'hunters' that combine with stealth though a few use stealth as a small portion of the game such as shadow or morder.
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That's right, which is why Alien Isolation is unique and works in a much more sophisticated way than those game.

I'm just asking because I'm curious if you might actually have an idea of what you're talking about, and that you're not simply whining about how a game kicked your ass and you thought it was mean to you ;)

imho this game is cheap logic and I would be shocked if it were more than several hundred lines of dense code (a good coder can generate a more than thousand line of correct dense code a week). Anyways I think we've taken this as far as we can. You are welcome to your opinion and I'll keep my opinion.
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I'm not trying to change your opinion ;) I'm trying to see if it has any value.

I have to say I'm leaning towards you still being completely ignorant and talking out your ass. Your 20 lines of code for some old pathfinding function you once wrote was priceless, though. I mean, obviously - that means Alien Isolation is simple. It's elementary! ;)

Thank you for this interesting exchange!

imho this game is cheap logic and I would be shocked if it were more than several hundred lines of dense code (a good coder can generate a more than thousand line of correct dense code a week). Anyways I think we've taken this as far as we can. You are welcome to your opinion and I'll keep my opinion.
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Yes, it's cheap logic that you don't know anything about and which you've never seen. You think you have some idea of how many lines of code based on….. zero knowledge.

You also completely ignore what the developers themselves are saying about how the game works - and how it's 100% systemic and unusually sophisticated, to the extent that they don't even know why the Alien does what it does sometimes. Same goes for the players who've played it and cared enough about it to do their research.

Meaning, you know nothing about it and your opinion about this is worthless.

I think I've had what I can take of this ignorant nonsense. Have fun with your "opinion" ;)
 
Started morrowind, never replayed this, only played it and finished it back in 2004 haha ; after a day lost to testing mods, got underway, only level 8 so far, lost almost a day exploring every corner of vivec city :lol:
 
I started playing Disgaea the first a couple of days ago. Right now I'm grinding out a few levels just so I can unlock a rogue, I cannot play a game without a thief!
 
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Nearly done with Pillars, after two years of going back and forth. Just into second expansion, with lvl scaling enabled, but feels over the top...even kobolds/xaurips take way too many hits.
Still have to deal with main antagonist, done with Twin Elms, but liking it so far. Trial was definitely highlight of the game, great build up, seems OBS has a knack for them ( NWN II).
 
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NewDArt said:
Ah, so you mentioned it for no relevant reason. Cool! ;)



Well, you have me convinced that you're even more ignorant than I thought when it comes to AI.

In any case, what does it matter if the code is 20 lines or a million lines? What matters is how the game plays and if the Alien - in this case - is unpredictable and scary. If you can do that in 20 lines of code - then I think you're in the wrong line of work ;)



I'm not trying to change your opinion ;) I'm trying to see if it has any value.

I have to say I'm leaning towards you still being completely ignorant and talking out your ass. Your 20 lines of code for some old pathfinding function you once wrote was priceless, though. I mean, obviously - that means Alien Isolation is simple. It's elementary! ;)

Thank you for this interesting exchange!



Yes, it's cheap logic that you don't know anything about and which you've never seen. You think you have some idea of how many lines of code based on….. zero knowledge.

You also completely ignore what the developers themselves are saying about how the game works - and how it's 100% systemic and unusually sophisticated, to the extent that they don't even know why the Alien does what it does sometimes. Same goes for the players who've played it and cared enough about it to do their research.

" ;)
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I'm curious what you think my line of work is and if you have ever coded a game or professionally ? Actually I noted that the video of the developer description of their work matched my observation of the alien behavior so I don't think I ignored their view. However that doesn't mean I think it is overly sophisticated.

the concise reason I do not provide a counter example is that while I think other games have had better ai (not necessarily stealth games); these games have their own flaws in behavior and if I start mentioning them they will be easy to pick apart for these other flaws. Alien isolation is unique in the sense that the game requires a certain behavior that many other games lack but that doesn't mean the chosen design is uniquely strong or sophisticated. Ignoring stealth; how many games have critters continuously hunting you (for example) through a maze. The sample population is small.

Anyway I have two more chapters left on hard and then i will add one last post to recent games you finished.
 
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Finally figured out how to level up in ESO with a little more speed, so I went from level 22 to 42 in something like 4-5 hours ;)

I'm tired of constantly changing gear - so I want to get to 50 so I can start working towards a decent setup without feeling like it's a waste of time.

Fun times! ;)
 
Total War: Napoleon and after that I'll finally try Total War: Warhammer.

After that who knows I might replay all my Spiders RPGs again.
 
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Thrasher said:
Oh yes, I've seen the zergs make the loop. Also, the dolmens in Auridon get similar attention for the maybe, a little bit closer, wayshrines. :)
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Yeah, I've done both loops ;)

Alik'r is a bit faster in my experience - but they're largely the same.
 
One of the Alik'r dolmens has a longer trot up the hill. The one dolmen near Vukel guard gets closed very fast since there is always a crowd hanging around. If you miss it then yes, you could be slowed up. There are bigger crowds in Alik'r that probably make up for the longer trots. Lots of factors, some that depend on the time of day (namely the pack size).
 
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Curiously, I've been in a 90's FPS mood lately.

Doom & Doom II (Chasing UltraViolence achievements...)
Shadow Warrior Redux (Never played it back in the day - it's a bit politically incorrect and tacky in the humour at times, but it's a real hoot to play and is fairly challenging.)
Heretic

MAME:
1942 and Pacmania

I've also made some tentative steps in starting Enderal. I haven't quite made it to Riverville yet, only just finding my feet really and nosing around the place.

Once I've got the blammo out of my system, I'll also get right back to Shadowrun: Hong Kong. :)
 
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