List CRPG ingredients by their importance to you.

Jaz said:

...it should at least kindle all kinds of emotions in me, the player (joy, grief, anger... the whole gamut)

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I remember reading an interview with Peter Molyneux in which he talked about wanting to create a game that made people cry. Actually, he often talks about the need for computer games to evoke deeper, more complex feelings. While his games to date haven't reflected that desire, he does make an important point, and hopefully one day he'll succeed in implementing his vision. While many computer games are fun, I haven't yet found one which delivered the strong emotional impact of a really good book or movie.
Gothic 3, however, did an excellent job of evoking the feelings of grief and anger (especially when trying to play it on 1gig of RAM), so it looks like game developers are making some progress in this field

For me it's rather simple - if I'm going to properly roleplay in a world, it must be a world with consequences and atmosphere. Also, I prefer to have a certain amount of meaningful dialogue. Last, but not least, I need a bit of challenge - if it becomes too straight forward or easy, I quickly lose interest.

chamr said:

@txa: don't start getting all Shock on us!
You forgot to add "wearing the ever-popular impossible battle bikini"

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There is a great book out there dealing with this cliché : "Chicks in Chainmail" !

Me, I don't have such a list, but I believe that HiddenX has sais already what I would seem to be important.

A few points I would like to stress for my own opinion :

- Exploration. I'nm a gamer of the "explorer style" of gaming, and this is simply essential to me.

- Character progress. I simply love watching a char "grow".

- difficulty not too strong, because I tend toi give up relatively early. The difficulty sould be set within the options of the game anywhere in the game.

- not too much fighting. I want a "role playing game", not a "fight playing game" !

- no rely on items aka item collecting.

- a slight emphasis on dialogues. I love reading.

- Story, story, story ! I need something to be immersed. And to me, that is the story.

Well, I think that's it for now.

I'd like to have the ability to ride horses and have them as beasts of burden, this would be very nice. (Sacred, Dungeon Siege)

crpgnut said:

1. Character creation- This is my Gothic killer. I want to pick what I look like, what I'm wearing, my race, my skills, my classes. I don't want the game to force these choices on me. If I pick, it's my role-playing game. If it's forced upon me, it's their role-playing game. Big difference.

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I fully agree with that, and it is a big part of why I can't get into Gothic either. Most important for me is choosing my sex, I just can not roleplay a male character. I've tried in various games, but I am a woman and I just can not relate to a male character.

crpgnut said:

2. Exploration-I want a huge world to play in with lots of things to find. Variety is nice here, but not the end-all be-all. If I find 50 dungeons, even if similar, all is good. Item collection fits here too. I want to find stuff and then....

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Up to a point... if the world is huge but empty, or all dungeons offer exactly the same loot, I would rather have a smaller, more linear, but fully fleshed out world.
I do want variety in the scenery and caves, the bigger the world, the more variety. Different architecture and so on can really help with that as well.

I love collecting loot, buying, selling and inventory tetris (believe it or not) although I do prefer a larger inventory over a small one.

crpgnut said:

3. Item manipulation-This includes things like alchemy, crafting, spell building, lever puzzles, weapon and armor upgrades, etc.

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Here we disagree. I hate pull-the-lever puzzles with a vengeance, one of the reasons I can't get into a lot of the older CRPGs. Alchemy, crafting, and so on I like in the beginning and get bored of fast as an option, it is okay, but it should not be a main feature.
Weapon and armor upgrades are fine, and I quite like, exept for those games where I end up with an inventory full of gems I don't know what to do with (I'm looking at you, NWN2) or where every item has 6 enchantments and three gemslots and it is impossible to quickly see which one is the better one (that is you, Sacred).
NWN1 and Diablo 2 got the balance right for me though, and so does Morrowind, where alcemy and enchanting are optional.

crpgnut said:

4. Plentiful magic power- I want to be Pug of Crydee, or Belgarion of Riva. Not some little hedge witch who can cast 10 spells. I love games where you fill a
spell book

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Yes, nothing to add here.

crpgnut said:

5. Stat/Ability/Skill manipulation-I want to tweak my character lots of times over the whole game. I want to see in-game effects of my gains in these areas.

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Yes, I love levelling up, getting new skills, feats, attacks, and so on.

crpgnut said:

6. Quickly resolved combat. Very few games have done combat so well that I enjoy multiple minute fights with each group of monsters. ToEE is an exception here. This is what I hated about Wiz8. It was the weakest aspect of the Ultima series too.

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I agree, combat should resolve quickly, and situations should be solvable with various options, not just combat. Not enough games reward stealth for example.

crpgnut said:

For me, story and memorable npcs are plusses. Neither are necessary for a good game. I loved Questron, Phantasie, Wizards Crown, etc back in the old days and none of these games had much of a story or any npcs. I made up the story myself with my imagination.

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For me this is very important, although I can enjoy games that don't have it, I prefer games that do. And well fleshed out NPCs and dialoge are more important to me then the overal story.

crpgnut said:

I'm a leveling-explorer crpger. I like things that increase: stats, skills, item abilities, etc and uncovering the black. These are my favorites in any game.

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Yes, this combined with memorable NPCs and well written dialoge makes the perfect RPG for me

Interesting feedback folks, thanks! I seem to be alone when I say that the story and dialogue doesn't matter that much to me. This may be because I started playing crpgs/D&D after moving from wargames. I love a deep lore system, but I don't want the main story to be the reason for playing. I'm never able to get into adventure/crpgs like Planescape: Torment/Gothics. The unending reading and chit-chat with the npcs bores me to tears. I don't care about your story, I wanna make my own It's the primary reason that TES is the perfect series for me. My only gripe with TES is that each game has less skills/abilities/factions, etc than the game before. The main quests in Morrowind and Oblivion are forgettable. Bethesda should drop the main quest idea altogether, instead chosing a handful of important questlines for the various guilds. They need to put consequences back into the game in some form as well. You shouldn't be able to do every quest with one character, it's retarded.

Without a challenging turn based combat system it'll be hard for a game to win my love and money.
Next is a rich character development with lots of meaningful skill and feats to choose on level up and by practicing.
Playability is important: If the game is constantly loading or the mouse control and interface is not working properly it's hard for me to get immersed.
An explorable and non-linear RPG is what I like.
Sure, a sense of accomplishment is important and made me an exclusiv RPG gamer.
I prefer setting over story. I can make my own story in my head.
Least important: Graphics. If the gameplay is there, I can play an ASCII RPG, though i really like to be flashed by a new game graphicwise.

Playability is important: If the game is constantly loading or the mouse control and interface is not working properly it's hard for me to get immersed.

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this is the reason I can't get into Gothic. I know most at this site are fanboi's of it, and I trust you that's its a great story, however, I just can't get past this. To me the clunkiness makes it unplayable.

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I love pull the lever puzzles. I tended to make those in all my dungeons for NWN.
Turn Based is tiringly out of date. I can enjoy Pause and Play just fine. I will admit there was too much text for me w/ Planescape..I couldn't finish it. I just felt too bogged down.

I don't know what the deal is with people wanting complex moral choices these days. I don't think people actually like this when its down. I certainly didn't like it the one or two in Ultima 9. I look at conversations and I try to figure the "right" one. Its sort of like open endedness: people clamoured for it until they saw it done in Morrowind. Now every dev realizes they need focus in their games even if it means babysitting them to the next quest. As for graphics..sorry I'm adverse to Avernum. Only nostalgia helped me to play thru U3 and U4 again.

The way I like dealing with quests is open ended discovery. Don't launch the player right in the middle of the problem, let them discover a (the) problem after a bit of play. Start it off generic and then they discover something much bigger going on that no one quite realizes.

Lucky Day
"I certainly didn't like it the one or two in Ultima 9"

You know, imo to this day U9 still has the single worst quest ever in a game and it's made 10 times worst because the Ultima series was built around virtues like compassion.
There is a quest in U9 where you have to convince a father whom stole bread (or some food) to feed his children, he was wrong and dissevered to be executed.

Now get this, in a world where the king has lost control of his kingdom to horrible (they even respawn though I am not sure if the NPCs know this, ) beasts and rampant violence from bandits, but the king can magically call a super hero to come save him.
Of course there is certainly no possibility a peasant could survive much less go out to fish or hunt.
So here we are the bastions of virtues like compassion tricking some poor guy that he is a criminal because he cared enough about his family to make sure they had something to eat.
Oh btw this guy was in a sort of limbo area not dead or not alive apparently he was executed for this heinous crime, of course I lost all respect at this point.

"I look at conversations and I try to figure the "right" one."

Isn't that RPing of a sort you are searching for "your" correct answer whether you like to play good, neutral or bad characters?

My List,

1) Complex Combat System (Severance, Gothic 1&2)
2) Linear Gameplay (Gothic 1&2)
3) RADIANT AI
4) Gothic 2 size world
5) Items variety like in Oblivion

These are the most important ones.

Unique moments: Show me something I've never seen before. Preferably emergent, so I get the ones you designed for and others you didn't expect. I'm sure the scripted betrayals in your noble elf drama are perfectly lovely, but I've seen them.

Multiple solutions to problems: Multiple paths, tools, and weapons. Not dialog options. "Pick an option from this list; good ones get you treasure, bad ones get you a fight!" is the stupidest game system still in use.

Elves: Presented as emaciated savages with filthy hair and needle-sharp teeth, who live in hollow mounds of mud on the sides of trees that resemble wasp nests.

Please. Just once.

I dont really care about the classification of a game as long as it is fun, but these are things I find important in the officially recognised RPGs I enjoy.

DOs:

The most important issue to me is that there should be multiple solutions to problems, allowing different kinds of characters to be playable.

Having alternative paths (Arcanum, to a lesser extent Gothic 2) with different questlines is nice.

Having many alternative solutions to quests. Anyone remember the squirrel outside Seattle in ZakMckracken? Not an RPG, but relevevant. You could bludgeon it with a golfclub, bludgeon it with a loaf of stale bread, bribe it with peanuts... Among RPGs Gothic 2 has a few of those instances and so does Arcanum.

Character customization options that makes each instance of restartitis feel unique. Can be done by having enough skills and items... Should be coupled with having lots of alternative ways of solving problems.

Believable NPCs that I interact with a lot. Gothic 1 and 2 stand out here. Gothic 3, Oblivion, and to some extent Baldurs gate are negative examples.

Non-linearity helps the replay value if done right. I think Morrowind solved this nicely by simply having tonnes of optional quests that could be done in any order, making it possible to save 75% of them for a different kind of character.

DONTs:
Railroading: Being forced or guided through ONE path in a not so subtle manner is a cardinal sin in RPGs. Neverwinter Nights OC and individual Oblivion quests (due to the compass) comes to mind...

Combat and quest done in a way so that glaring flaws in NPC AI become too obvious, or these will kill any sense of immersion (NPCs running in front of your swinging sword in Oblivion and any "follow me" quest in Gothic 3 are negative examples...). Turnbased or realtime doesnt matter, as long as it is fluid enough. I still find the combat in the almost 20 year old gold box games excellent, even though it is turn based.

Reality features that disrupt the flow of the game without adding to difficulty or gameplay in any meaningful way. Limited inventory in Baldurs Gate forcing me to trek back to a shop for selling or buying arrows, limited inventory in Oblivion/Morrowind (Daggerfall had an excellent pack horse feature for this), weapons breaking out of the blue in Realms of Arkania 2tar Trail forcing me to go back across half the map... It all adds to gaming time but disrupts the flow of the gameplay.

Add any pointless trekking around. God solutions are to put shops strategically close to insta-travel points (G3 is ok), making the inventory unlimited, or allow insta travel to "services" (otherwise incredibly bug-infested Age of Pirates: Carribean Tales got this right).

Lawnmowing. I shouldnt have to lawn mow the world for experience or tightly plan my character build to win the game (Gothic 2 NotR falls in this trap and does it badly, even though I enjoy the game, Oblivions level scaling also punishes some builds rather heavily).

Having tonnes of useless skills (Realms of Arkania games with a direct translation of PnP rules come to mind) that you dont know if you ever will need, mixed with one or two that you WILL need.

Button/lever/jumping puzzles: Why? These rarely make sense.

abbaon said:

Elves: Presented as emaciated savages with filthy hair and needle-sharp teeth, who live in hollow mounds of mud on the sides of trees that resemble wasp nests.

Please. Just once.

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Actually, this is a pretty historically accurate take. Elves/fairies were usually perceived as malevolent beings, kidnapping, ensorceling and tormenting mortals in a variety of creative ways before Tolkein got hold of them. They could appear beautiful, but it was only as a glamour to mislead the unfortunate who came across them.

Yes, I'd like to see a game abandon this cliche also-Dark Elves are not quite it--they're just the flipside of the golden glowing ones.

magerette said:

Actually, this is a pretty historically accurate take. Elves/fairies were usually perceived as malevolent beings, kidnapping, ensorceling and tormenting mortals in a variety of creative ways before Tolkein got hold of them. They could appear beautiful, but it was only as a glamour to mislead the unfortunate who came across them.

Yes, I'd like to see a game abandon this cliche also-Dark Elves are not quite it--they're just the flipside of the golden glowing ones.

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I think that The Witcher represents elves as vanquished or defeated, so your wish -- and Abbaon's, and mine too -- will come true at least that one time. (But Darklands also represented elves/dwarves/kobolds, etc. as they were perceived in western myth. Ah, what a game.)

My dream RPG would contain these components:

A low/no magic medieval setting, somewhat like Darklands'. The game world should have rich lore/backstory and have things happening and changing while you play, so that it doesn't seem like the world is there simply as a playground for your character to explore. Practically every NPC should have, if not a backstory, then at least a "reason" to exist, a goal in life. If this means you need to scale down the playable part of the world, then so be it. Quality over quantity.

Since magic equipment would not exist or be exceedingly rare, copy ththe equipment from Darklands as well. And maybe the alchemy. And possibly the saint system, depending on the setting.

Choices without the clichéd clearcut good/evil alternatives, and with consequences that are logical in a gameworld sense, but not always easily predictable.

A non-linear storyline that does not let you save your universe/world/country/city/village from impending doom - it should be personal, meaning that your character should be able to follow the storyline for him-/herself with a variety of motives.

Experience is gained from finishing quests, not through monster grinding, much like in V:tM - Bloodlines. Experience would be spent in a point buy system, also somewhat akin to Bloodlines.

Full party control in the turn-based combat, á la ToEE. Party NPCs with personalities like in BG2 is a definite plus, if not, then a party creation system like in Darklands.

I hated Darklands!! Bored me to tears and I never came close to finishing it!! Magic Rules!!

The Church Triumphant rules.

Didn't Atari end up with the ownership of Darklands?
It seems like an "EA duh! moment" reguarding System Shock franchise, for Atari not to do at least an updated version if not a full sequel.

With all the great ideas, I am beginning to believe the real RPG designers are lurking on this board.

While we could write and design one, I don't believe we have the resources to actually make one!!

crpgnut said:

Interesting feedback folks, thanks! I seem to be alone when I say that the story and dialogue doesn't matter that much to me.

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You arent alone here, my feelings exactly. If I want a good story, I'll read a book or watch a movie. It's like when people talk about playing DVDs or Cds on a pc or a console. That's what I have a DVD player and a stereo for, you know. Stories are for the books and movies, I play games for the experience of being the story myself.

While I do like a bit of brief conversation to help with the immersion into the virtual world, please dont dwell on it long, make it short and sweet. Give me engaging and challenging gameplay, nice graphics, a huge world to explore, a bit of danger, and some goals. A few chainmail bikinis dont hurt either! ='.'=

Like Ive always said - Give me something to save, wind me up, and let me go!

That's what I have a DVD player and a stereo for, you know.

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What people have those things... I thought it was 2007 now everything is done on the computer. It plays DVD's better than DVD players..... it plays music better than the stero..... games.... it can offer you a long story ( movies can't ), graphics sounds and music ( books can't ) making your own choices ( books / movies can't ) unless it is one of those adventure books LOL... gameplay ( books and movies can't ) all this combined makes for a great experiance. Besides you need to use your brain in many games!