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Default Do NOT download/ install latest Windows 10 update, you may lose files

October 7th, 2018, 19:01
I use Everything, it's fast as lightning. I can find a file on any of my hard drives in less than a second, and it consumes less than 1.5MB of RAM as it runs in the background.
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October 7th, 2018, 19:31
I rather hire an expert or at least knowledgeable if i were to hire someone.

Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
I am completely ok with people disagreeing with me. Their naivety keeps me employed. \_(ツ)_/
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October 7th, 2018, 19:52
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
Yeah, blame the user(s). You are correct, most of the people are not tech savvy and don't backup, but Windows was marketed as the best, most secure OS, and never did they say "oh, but you should totally backup your data, we might fuck up sometime in the future".

Imagine if someone sold a hammer which works well, but around 100th hit it just shatters, but it was marketed as the best one and the shattering part was never mentioned. People like construction workers or hobbyists would know to buy something more trustworthy, but most people, who don't use hammers daily, would buy it and forget about it. Then on a 100th hit or so, it shatters. Would we still blame the users or would we call the hammer company a scam and proceed with legal actions? Why give software companies special treatment?
Better comparison needed. Hammers were probably around even before homo sapiens, and don't get online updates. Also, hard drives "shatter" all the time. And as a mechanic, you always have a backup wrench to your impact wrench.

MS absolves itself of damages in the EULA, and expects the user to take reasonable steps.

This is the how technology is evolving, people. You can keep fighting it, but you're are just delaying the inevitable.

If Linux went corporate mainstream, like Windows did, it would follow the same path. Even an OS that tries to do both, like Ubuntu, is not exempt. Go to almost any site in regards to Ubuntu (or any variation of Linux really) and updating it, and the message "backup your data" is plastered everywhere.
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October 7th, 2018, 20:48
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post

This is the how technology is evolving, people. You can keep fighting it, but you're are just delaying the inevitable.

If Linux went corporate mainstream, like Windows did, it would follow the same path. Even an OS that tries to do both, like Ubuntu, is not exempt. Go to almost any site in regards to Ubuntu (or any variation of Linux really) and updating it, and the message "backup your data" is plastered everywhere.
Pure nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in the way "technology is advancing" that requires this sort of updating behavior. What I suspect you are looking at on Ubuntu forums, with regard to warnings about backing up, is the recommendations before doing an upgrade. That is, moving from one version to the next. That's, of course, a risky procedure that can fail on any OS. The point is, a reasonable update system doesn't force such upgrades on you. Quite the reverse, it gives you dire warnings and makes you jump through some hoops to make sure you mean it.

What we're seeing here is the sort of Windows upgrade that would once have been a Service Pack, with all such caveats attached. That sort of caution is still used in the Linux world, and there is no "technological advancement" reason why it should not be.

Microsoft simply no longer exercises such caution on home platforms, and takes the upgrade decision away from users. But, hey, it covers itself legally in the EULA. Bravo!
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October 7th, 2018, 21:50
Again bullshit. Linux is configurable. It might have a default configuration but you can change it. The latest ubuntu will install patches but you can trivially turn it off.
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The problem with MS shit is that it is buggy and FORCED upon you. Then they add a clause - by the way if WE decided to push an update and destroy your computer it is your fault. So Sorry.

[QUOTE=Caddy;1061533594\

If Linux went corporate mainstream, like Windows did, it would follow the same path. Even an OS that tries to do both, like Ubuntu, is not exempt. Go to almost any site in regards to Ubuntu (or any variation of Linux really) and updating it, and the message "backup your data" is plastered everywhere.[/QUOTE]
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October 7th, 2018, 22:50
The thing is, the Windows vs Linux aspect is a red herring in this debate. When you get right down to it, they are both monolithic kernel operating systems, comprised of a complex kernel that handles the fundamentals, and a stack of binaries that perform all the other functions of the OS. You could update both of them in essentially the same way if you wanted to; there's nothing about either of them that mandates a particular approach. The whole matter comes down to how the different companies choose to go about things.

The other misleading idea is that forced updates have something to do with being in the "corporate mainstream". The complete opposite is true. It's the Enterprise versions of Windows that give complete control of updates - enterprises set the group policies as they see fit, and test significant updates before deciding when and how to roll them out. That's the way it's always been done in the enterprise, and the way corporate Linux systems do it, too.

The only difference is in Microsoft's decision to take the choice and control in updates away from home users.
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October 7th, 2018, 23:04
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
Pure nonsense. There is absolutely nothing in the way "technology is advancing" that requires this sort of updating behavior.
It's definitely an opinion, just not a very good one. Statements like "Pure nonsense" and "absolutely nothing" state extremes of 0%. Since the we know the benefits are at least higher than 0%, let's at least be realistic here.

Technology is moving towards being always online and in the cloud. Software is moving towards being more turn-key. You run it and go. This includes "did I do those updates? Oh they're already done for me". These are not the earlier OS days of configuring ports, IRQs, memory managers, disk controller drivers, network drivers, modem and ISP logins, and oh gawd we could keep going. If you use Steam, Firefox, Chrome, etc, it's set to automatically update when you restart by default. iOS is going this way with 12. The windows of opportunity postponing updates, are getting smaller as time passes. It doesn't matter if you put your fingers in your ears and pretend it's not happening. This is how it's going to be.

It's a quantifiable number. In investment circles, it's called the Risk Aversion Coefficient.

BENEFIT - RISK = EFFICIENCY

In the case of Windows 10 and the majority of its user-base (not including Enterprise) we get the following:

The BENEFIT of forced updates, minus the RISK of forced updates equals a higher EFFICIENCY difference over the BENEFIT of user controlled updates, minus the RISK of user controlled updates.
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October 7th, 2018, 23:17
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
The thing is, the Windows vs Linux aspect is a red herring in this debate. When you get right down to it, they are both monolithic kernel operating systems, comprised of a complex kernel that handles the fundamentals, and a stack of binaries that perform all the other functions of the OS. You could update both of them in essentially the same way if you wanted to; there's nothing about either of them that mandates a particular approach. The whole matter comes down to how the different companies choose to go about things.

The other misleading idea is that forced updates have something to do with being in the "corporate mainstream". The complete opposite is true. It's the Enterprise versions of Windows that give complete control of updates - enterprises set the group policies as they see fit, and test significant updates before deciding when and how to roll them out. That's the way it's always been done in the enterprise, and the way corporate Linux systems do it, too.

The only difference is in Microsoft's decision to take the choice and control in updates away from home users.
You're interpreting "corporate mainstream" as the user-base. I'm stating it from its developing company entity.

If Linux were to see the same numbers for user-base, it would ultimately move the way of Windows for the average user, and have an Enterprise version for the respective environment. Since the Linux user-base as a whole is currently entirely different as a whole, the argument doesn't apply, as the coefficient i've listed above has a completely different Efficiency answer.

Again as per the coefficient i've already listed above, Windows Enterprise is not relevant in this argument, because their total user-base is completely different, and is managed by IT professionals. Again, the Efficiency difference is completely different.
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October 7th, 2018, 23:18
Originally Posted by you View Post
Again bullshit. Linux is configurable. It might have a default configuration but you can change it. The latest ubuntu will install patches but you can trivially turn it off.
That wasn't even the argument. Keep up!
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October 7th, 2018, 23:31
Well I know I won’t make the move to windows 10 in 2020 (currently using 7).
It is either Linux or an iMac.

I know little of an iMac. I have an iPad and iPhone though.
Can anybody enlighten me perhaps?
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October 8th, 2018, 00:10
If the machine is primarily gaming I would based the decision off of which one supports more of your type of games. Linux does have some emulation either via wine or steam enhanced wine but it has limits esp with games that have very high gpu requirements. I don't follow the mac at all these days but I'm sure it has some similar support.
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If production I'd based it off of the tools you require. You can 'play' with linux easy enough - the minimal investment is to make a live-system usb and run it off a usb. Disk writes will be slow at times but for small amounts of data buffering will hide it.
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I've been using unix for years so while the default desktop aren't to my liking I know which ones I like and can switch easy enough - for you it might be more difficult. My preference is xfce ontop of ubuntu which panels on top and bottom (you can have as many panels as you want though i can't see more than 4 making sense).
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The problem with linux is that when things go wrong you need some expertise to figure it out - on the positive side the information is frequently somewhere - the negative is that a lot of it is scattered.
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My overall summary is that it is more reliable than windows but some of the older stuff is very crufty in configuration and logging. Conversely it is configurable - sometimes too configurable. It is quite easy to break things if you don't know what you are doing.
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However the default installs are pretty much turnkey if they work for you - though i've found 18.04 quite buggy compared to 16.04 (these are ubuntu long term release - with 18.04 they are slowly moving to a new display manager (xserver (Xorg variant) being the long term display manager.


Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Well I know I wont make the move to windows 10 in 2020 (currently using 7).
It is either Linux or an iMac.

I know little of an iMac. I have an iPad and iPhone though.
Can anybody enlighten me perhaps?
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October 8th, 2018, 00:11
No it was a statement of fact. The very license around linux and associated support software makes it virtually impossible to prevent end users from changing the configuration.

Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
That wasn't even the argument. Keep up!
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October 8th, 2018, 00:22
@Caddy

The introduction of an abstract, simple economic equation does not establish one's assertions any more strongly, or indeed tell us very much at all. You could call that a "quantifiable figure" in the abstract, but only by assigning your chosen values to fundamentally non-quantifiable things. What for example would be the quantity of risk, or the quantity of benefit - 6 litres of risk, 20 tonnes of efficiency? These concepts have no countable measure - only the numbers you choose to assign to them. This is simply a tool for proceduralising a decision making process, but it is entirely derived from the subjective judgment of the values for those concepts that you plug into it.

It's a very common way that suits attempt to sell the idea that what they're trying to convince you of is simple science. It’s not. Who decides what the risk vs benefit of changes to one's personal computer ought to be, and what those values are? These are not scientific questions.

Here is Ripper's Microsoft Animosity Coefficient :

Dislike of having things forced on me x Importance of control of personal computer = Contempt for Microsoft (measured in standard candles)

The answer is 42, but it's not terribly useful.

With regard to your actual arguments, for which the coefficient is just a distracting accessory, you seem to be confusing the idea of current trends with that which is unavoidable through technological advancement, and simply asserting that Linux would end up doing the same things as Microsoft if it got big enough.
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Last edited by Ripper; October 8th, 2018 at 02:18.
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October 8th, 2018, 00:31
Originally Posted by Eye View Post
Well I know I wont make the move to windows 10 in 2020 (currently using 7).
It is either Linux or an iMac.

I know little of an iMac. I have an iPad and iPhone though.
Can anybody enlighten me perhaps?
They are very nice machines, but overpriced for the hardware inside. OSX tends to be love it or hate for ex Windows users, so it would be good to try it for a while before buying. Apple is also very fond of locking users into their walled-garden, and I have no great love for them, but I would consider the way they treat their users, in terms of privacy and so forth, as better then Microsoft at least.
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October 8th, 2018, 01:11
Great. So it sounds like Caddy thinks we are all going to be dragged into a "1984" big brother overlord future, whether we like it or not. Nothing can be done, the future is set in stone. Will we have to pray to the gods at Microsoft too? After all, they were so kind as to give us this wonderful technology. Maybe we all will be hooked into the Microsoft master AI, and be monitored for any naughty "hate speech" at all times…
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October 8th, 2018, 01:12
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
@Caddy

The introduction of an abstract, simple economic equation does not establish one's assertions any more strongly, or indeed tell us very much at all. You could call that a "quantifiable figure" in the abstract, but only by assigning your chosen values to fundamentally non-quantifiable things. What for example would be the quantity of risk, or the quantity of benefit - 6 litres of risk, 20 tonnes of efficiency? These concepts have no countable measure - only the numbers you choose to assign to them. This is simply a tool for proceduralising a decision making process, but it is entirely derived from the subjective judgment of the values for those concepts that you plug into it.

It's a very common way that suits try to sell the idea what they're trying to convince you of is simple science. Its not. Who decides what the risk vs benefit of changes to one's personal computer ought to be, and what those values are? These are not scientific questions.

Here is Ripper's Microsoft Animosity Coefficient :

Dislike of having things forced on me x Importance of control of personal computer = Contempt for Microsoft (measured in standard candles)

The answer is 42, but it's not terribly useful.

With regard to your actual arguments, for which the coefficient is just a distracting accessory, you seem to be confusing the idea of current trends with that which is unavoidable through technological advancement, and simply asserting that Linux would end up doing the same things as Microsoft if it got big enough.
The main body of what you are saying here is that you don't agree with the numbers that a risk analysis team would use. Which means the only direction this is going, is down the rabbit hole of who's opinion is the right one.

So I will concede to the common ground, that I would absolutely love to see more gaming support for Linux
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October 8th, 2018, 01:22
Well, just to be clear, what I'm getting at is that the equation kind of lends the appearance of saying more than it is. All it really comes down to is saying that businesses will make a decision after assessing the risk vs benefit of the options, which seems so obvious as to be redundant.

My main point, and I'm happy to just agree to disagree, is that I don't think there is an inevitability to updates being done Microsoft's way if a company gets big enough. I would suggest, for example, that if Ubuntu and Windows were equal rivals in the market, and it was known that inconvenient forced updates were something that aggravated customers, the assessment of the risk of updating in that way might suddenly look very different to Microsoft, not Linux.
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October 8th, 2018, 01:48
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
I am completely ok with people disagreeing with me. Their naivety keeps me employed. \_(ツ)_/
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October 8th, 2018, 03:09
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October 18th, 2018, 04:34
Seems like i was too quick saying i didn't have problems with Search any longer in Windows (10). Now it's suddenly bugged out. Out of 9 .sfk files it will only find 1 in my folder if i search for .sfk..

another bug too showed its ugly face today, selecting a file, choosing SoundForge to be default to open .wav's with doesnt work either. It refuses to let it be default.. really time consuming bug for me since i can no longer just click a file to open it with Soundforge, takes at least 3x as long time to click file, browse to "open with" find Soundforge in the list.. working with many 1000's of files in hundreds of folders, so it really sucks.

It's not really a OS for anyone working "professionally", it's ok for surfing the web and playing games, the rest i guess they don't care to fix (especially Search since it wasn't working in Windows 7 either).
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