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Default If Baldur's Gate were released today

October 13th, 2018, 17:51
It would have Mixed reviews on Steam like Kingmaker does. People are still flocking to the game and the ones who love it *really* love it, and the ones who have no idea what a hardcore CRPG is or what they are doing hate it. But it's the closest thing to Baldur's Gate we've ever seen, with a faithful pen-and-paper ruleset and all the things we've seen in Baldur's Gate like non-level scaled encounters, careful management of rest (now with the added addition of time management) and more. But it's sad to say that if BG released today, it would also get Mixed reviews. And it's strange because other hardcore games in genres like strategy or simulation get praised for the learning curves and gargantuan knowledge you need to succeed, while an RPG with the same thing gets knocked for it. I call it Skyrim Syndrome. People expect RPGs to be easy and perfectly balanced in all ways so every encounter is a breeze and they don't have to worry about anything. This is a rant and brought you to by an Inquisitor of the Holy Order of Owlcat. Peace be upon you, friends, and may the holy Owlcat bring you many blessings and open the eyes of the non-believers. They know not what they do. Hooo…hooo…
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October 13th, 2018, 17:55
More games, more to choose from, higher standards.

By today's standards, BG is a somewhat bland game. But judged by the [mostly] barren landscape of RPGs in the late 90s, it was remarkable.
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October 13th, 2018, 18:01
Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
More games, more to choose from, higher standards.

By today's standards, BG is a somewhat bland game. But judged by the [mostly] barren landscape of RPGs in the late 90s, it was remarkable.
Let me reiterate. I meant if it were released but by 2018 graphics standards and mostly the same gameplay. People would be making the same complaints they are against Kingmaker, i.e. it's too difficult, it's too slow, it's unbalanced, the first enemy in the game killed my mage with 4 HP, etc.. Rather than understanding it's based on a serious pen-and-paper ruleset. I'm not sure people understand they need actual knowledge of the ruleset to be successful, since not many RPGs lately really need any knowledge of anything to play and win at. Just my 2 cents.
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October 13th, 2018, 18:06
There is no "hardcore rpg"…it's an oxymoron.

RPG by design implement mechanics from different genres, without having focus/depth/polish of any… whether it is stealth, dialogue, tactics: real time or turn based, action, strategy, management, etc, etc.

I always found it odd this silly elitist attitude with older rpg community.
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October 13th, 2018, 18:19
Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
There is no "hardcore rpg"…it's an oxymoron.

RPG by design implement mechanics from different genres, without having focus/depth/polish of any… whether it is stealth, dialogue, tactics: real time or turn based, action, strategy, management, etc, etc.

I always found it odd this silly elitist attitude with older rpg community.
There's no hardcore RPG? First I'm 33 years old, but I've been playing RPGs since I was 5 years old. A hardcore RPG is a game that requires knowledge to play, just like a strategy game from Paradox, Victoria II for example, which is a hardcore strategy game. Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 15 are not hardcore RPGs, they are easy to access and play. Baldur's Gate, Kingmaker, Icewind Dale are hardcore in the sense that you need to know background information about the ruleset and game to succeed. There's also games like NBA 2K series that is a hardcore basketball simulation, it requires tons of knowledge to play effectively. So that's all I mean by hardcore. Maybe a better term would be "knowledge-based" or "knowledge-required" games. There is a difference between an easily accessible game like Skyrim and a game like Baldur's Gate. One can be easily played, no background information necessary, while the other needs knowledge of ruleset and gameplay to play effectively. And this is not coming from an elitist position, I play both and all games, but I just noted from Steam reviews that if a game like Baldur's Gate were released today, it wouldn't be as accepted as something like Skyrim because of the knowledge-based approach it takes. I for one hope more games like Kingmaker and Baldur's Gate come back and don't take the knock in reviews that other genres get a pass for. That's all I'm saying.

Edit - For example, Victoria II has 87% positive reviews, and that game requires tons of knowledge to play effectively. There are several tiers of tutorials you have to play just to learn the basics of the game. Yet it doesn't get a knock for that, it gets praised, whereas an RPG that has the same level of depth and knowledge required gets a knock for it. So there's a double standard when it comes to different genres based on previous expectations.

And that was my caffeinated rant for the day. Don't mind me.
Last edited by TheRealFluent; October 13th, 2018 at 18:30.
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October 13th, 2018, 19:44
I've never seen the point of these "If xxxx were released today" threads, because they wouldn't be released today, or at least they would be very different.
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October 13th, 2018, 20:05
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I've never seen the point of these "If xxxx were released today" threads, because they wouldn't be released today, or at least they would be very different.
Point taken. Kingmaker is Baldur's Gate released today, and it is very different. I just felt like ranting this morning. Evil Fluent was beckoning to me from his magically warded prison.
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October 13th, 2018, 20:08
Originally Posted by TheRealFluent View Post
Point taken. Kingmaker is Baldur's Gate released today, and it is very different. I just felt like ranting this morning. Evil Fluent was beckoning to me from his magically warded prison.
Wait thought we still had 998 more loads screens to go.
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October 13th, 2018, 20:14
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Wait thought we still had 998 more loads screens to go.
And 997 of them are mimic loading screens that will attack you on sight. You have been warned.

And you get a -10 on loading screen rolls for using a hybrid HDD.
Last edited by TheRealFluent; October 13th, 2018 at 20:27.
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October 13th, 2018, 20:34
Originally Posted by TheRealFluent View Post
And 997 of them are mimic loading screens that will attack you on sight. You have been warned.

And you get a -10 on loading screen rolls for using a hybrid HDD.
No!!!!!!

That will screw up the percentage.

Means I'll fail one out of ten load screens.

Anyway could be wrong as I haven't played PathFinder or D&D tabletop in a while.
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October 13th, 2018, 20:36
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
No!!!!!!

That will screw up the percentage.

Means I'll fail one out of ten load screens.

Anyway could be wrong as I haven't played Path Finder or D&D tabletop in a while.
Okay, as a forgiving DM I'll give you a +6 Knowledge bonus for posting all the news articles you do. That should help in navigating the devious load screen dungeon.
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October 14th, 2018, 02:45
If Baldur's Gate were released today.. it would get a better score because it is an easier game to play than P:KM. Even with 4 HP mages at lvl 1 it is easier to play and level.
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October 14th, 2018, 03:01
Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
If Baldur's Gate were released today.. it would get a better score because it is an easier game to play than P:KM. Even with 4 HP mages at lvl 1 it is easier to play and level.
Okay, how about NWN then? That game had a ton of level up options that would confuse newcomers.
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October 14th, 2018, 03:39
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
I've never seen the point of these "If xxxx were released today" threads, because they wouldn't be released today, or at least they would be very different.
Agreed. If BG was released now, it will be vastly different to one released in 2000.

I'm happy that BG2, NWN, Kingmaker etc were released and I got to enjoy them as they are now.
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October 14th, 2018, 04:30
Errr no. Half the problem with Kingmaker is the sheer magnitude of bugs that it has. BG had almost no bugs in comparison.

Deadfire is a much better spiritual sequel to BG than Kingmaker at this stage.
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October 14th, 2018, 13:57
I never really understood hat BG hype. I mean, to me, it was just another RPG, one that I never quite understood, because I didn't know the rulebook,
and my guess is that its hype just was from being released after a drought.
Because after a drought, people praise EVERYTHING.
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October 14th, 2018, 21:27
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I never really understood hat BG hype. I mean, to me, it was just another RPG, one that I never quite understood, because I didn't know the rulebook,
and my guess is that its hype just was from being released after a drought.
Because after a drought, people praise EVERYTHING.
Disagree, Alrik. I didn't know a thing about D&D and I still ended up loving it. But that's ok I guess since I don't understand people loving Dark Eye/Drakensang either.

And no, people don't praise everything after the drought. I don't praise DA:O nor PoE etc which were released after the "drought"
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October 14th, 2018, 21:50
Originally Posted by TheRealFluent View Post
There's no hardcore RPG? First I'm 33 years old, but I've been playing RPGs since I was 5 years old. A hardcore RPG is a game that requires knowledge to play, just like a strategy game from Paradox, Victoria II for example, which is a hardcore strategy game. Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy 15 are not hardcore RPGs, they are easy to access and play. Baldur's Gate, Kingmaker, Icewind Dale are hardcore in the sense that you need to know background information about the ruleset and game to succeed. There's also games like NBA 2K series that is a hardcore basketball simulation, it requires tons of knowledge to play effectively. So that's all I mean by hardcore. Maybe a better term would be "knowledge-based" or "knowledge-required" games. There is a difference between an easily accessible game like Skyrim and a game like Baldur's Gate. One can be easily played, no background information necessary, while the other needs knowledge of ruleset and gameplay to play effectively. And this is not coming from an elitist position, I play both and all games, but I just noted from Steam reviews that if a game like Baldur's Gate were released today, it wouldn't be as accepted as something like Skyrim because of the knowledge-based approach it takes. I for one hope more games like Kingmaker and Baldur's Gate come back and don't take the knock in reviews that other genres get a pass for. That's all I'm saying.

Edit - For example, Victoria II has 87% positive reviews, and that game requires tons of knowledge to play effectively. There are several tiers of tutorials you have to play just to learn the basics of the game. Yet it doesn't get a knock for that, it gets praised, whereas an RPG that has the same level of depth and knowledge required gets a knock for it. So there's a double standard when it comes to different genres based on previous expectations.

And that was my caffeinated rant for the day. Don't mind me.
To me that's just number crunching. You can spend days calculating all the math in game like PoE, but entire tactics comes down to: put Eder in the front and debuff/blast everything with rest of the party. It's no different with BG or Kingmaker.
It's not complicated or difficult, plus RPGs are notorious for being extremely easy to exploit when you're familiar with systems/mechanics. ( Firkraag blows up your entire party? Use a few immunity scrolls and voila: suddenly he's completely harmless).
Besides people were far less critical of games then, due to rarity.
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October 14th, 2018, 22:42
Answering Fluent's question, as proposed in the thread's subject, if Baldur's Gate were released today, I would expect for a 50% discount in order to get it

Seriously, maybe the real question is: if BG were to be released 2018, how many of said "BG clones" would have been released? Let's not forget that PoE and Kingmaker, among ohers, do exist because BG was released first, many years Ago.
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October 14th, 2018, 22:47
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
Disagree, Alrik. I didn't know a thing about D&D and I still ended up loving it. But that's ok I guess since I don't understand people loving Dark Eye/Drakensang either.

And no, people don't praise everything after the drought. I don't praise DA:O nor PoE etc which were released after the "drought"
Well, I had huge problems. I had never competent groups, and I never understood why my party wasn't getting more powerful. I totally sucked at the middle lands, I didn't even get into the main capital. Every foe was too hard for my party. In nearly every later fight I was suffering one or more deaths, and even although I looted *everything* and sold it, I was always low on money, it seemed to me.

Meanwhile I was having far less problems with the Realms Of Arcania games - even although I had to read the rules a *lot* - I was having a much better time. Plus I *loved* micromanagement at that time !
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