Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Christmas Dev Stream

Drithius said:
You're not given the option to skip unique hostile encounters. Unless you're referring to the oddball +1 generic weapon found on random encounters; far better would be found in normal areas. I skipped probably 9/10 encounters or more and don't feel I missed anything. Baldur's Gate had such random encounters as well. And Fallout. Lot of quibbling over nothing.
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Sorry who is talking about random encounters? I am talking actual fixed maps that are duplicated. If you couldn't see the duplicated maps then you were simply not paying attention. The best example of this is the overland map with a cave in the top right corner. That map is duplicated about 5-6 times (if not more). There are a ton of other locations that are duplicated. Every village/town/city are duplicates that even share the same vendor and interior maps. The only thing unique about them are the artisans.

And these maps often have very good loot inside, so aren't really skip-able for the reasons I gave before.

Not as bad as Dragon Age 2 though :) BG2 had a couple but nowhere near as many as Kingmaker.
 
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bjon045 said:
Yes you could skip them but that is still poor game design. Better to either create the content or leave it out. Filler content has no place in a game, it is just sloppy. And besides, due to the itemization in Kingmaker skipping isn't really an option. If you happen to specialize in a weapon i.e fighter it might just be the one map that happens to have the one decent weapon type for you.
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You *chose* to do random encounter when the game gives you the tool to get around it, then decided to complain about it :) your choice.

Random encounter don't drop anything worthwhile but ok :)

Drithius said:
Thanks, purple, will take a look at that thread.
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You're welcome :)
 
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Drithius said:
You were.
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This is what I originally said:

bjon045 said:
The heavy re-use of maps (some maps were used up to 4 times) .
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I am talking about actual maps in the overland map. Purple is the one who started talking about random encounters.

And some of the best loot in the game comes from these maps i.e. +8 belt of physical perfection from Ilthuliaks Lair and that cave is used 4 times!

Examples that come to mind (Note I am just giving maps that are duplicated not listing the actual duplicates): Ratnook Hill, Giggling Grove, Weeping Grove, the path up to Talon Peak, Ilthuliaks Lair, The first world maps in Grocery Stalls, pretty much all the interior city buildings are used on other maps, lot's of taverns use the same maps.

I am fine with random encounters re-using maps - that is standard fare for every game in the last 30 years. I am only referring to the static maps.

purpleblob said:
More like someone is exeggerating ;)
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No I am not. Maps are reused often in Kingmaker. I would say approximately 30 times in the game - excluding random encounters.

But again, don't get me wrong, I love the game. It just would of been better though if the created more unique maps or just cut some of the duplicates and redistributed the items/encounters to other maps. BG2 had some duplicates but nowhere near at the level of Kingmaker.
 
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The thing is: Maps have to be re-used in Kingmaker, because so many things happen.
(In real life many things happen on the same map everyday).

I can not remember any other RPG with so many quests and events. (Maybe The Witcher 3 with addons comes close).
 
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Truth be told, all of these big open world CRPGs are full of filler content or encounters.

That's not really my problem with it - it's that it FELT like filler content too much of the time. To put it another way, too many areas and too many encounters felt like obvious padding - and did nothing to stand out.

They didn't feel like distinct or interesting encounters at all. More like yet another excuse to extend playtime and kill stuff.

But that's a subjective thing.

Some of my favorite games of all time have a ton of filler content. The difference is that I don't really notice it - because I enjoy the other aspects of the game so much.

Keep in mind that these traditional isometric party-based CRPGs aren't my favorite kind of game.

I personally consider them quaint and more like archaic throwbacks - and they have to be really, really good for me to stay engaged.

So, there's that.

For me, the world and gaming has moved on from the days of Baldur's Gate.

Kingmaker is an excellent game if you're into that sort of thing.

I suspect one of the primary reasons it's so popular is that it does D&D mechanics so well. In fact, I suspect a lot of people are overlooking certain issues with the game because it's so enjoyable to level up and develop characters using the Pathfinder rules.

An an overall experience, though, I prefer Pillars 2 (but it's a close call). Pillars 2 felt less like padding and areas felt more handcrafted and distinct to me. Also, while Pathfinder/D&D is obviously superior to anything Obsidian could ever manage - I have to say I enjoyed Pillars 2 combat much more, because it had so many active powers - where D&D was always mostly about passive abilities (apart from spells, obviously).

Anyway, these things are subjective - and it's not exactly a surprise that Kingmaker would be a big hit around here.

I'm happy for you guys and I can see why some would get a little defensive about its weaknesses.
 
DArtFlash said:
I'm happy for you guys and I can see why some would get a little defensive about its weaknesses.
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But what you consider "weakness" is not really a weakness for others ;)

Anyway, as I mentioned above, there are more Wrath information posted in Kingmaker section - just in case anyone missed, Hellknight companion is confirmed! :)
 
Well, computer games always make adventuring seem so easy and entertaining but in the real world exploring dungeons and slaying dragons can be quite exhausting. Maybe when Kingmaker feels like a slog it's to make you feel as tired as the characters? Perhaps it's intentional genius? Some players might quit when the combat is too difficult, others simply failed when mere existence became too much of an effort. I guess some people just don't have what it takes to be adventurers. :p
 
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SirJames said:
Well, computer games always make adventuring seem so easy and entertaining but in the real world exploring dungeons and slaying dragons can be quite exhausting. Maybe when Kingmaker feels like a slog it's to make you feel as tired as the characters? Perhaps it's intentional genius? Some players might quit when the combat is too difficult, others simply failed when mere existence became too much of an effort. I guess some people just don't have what it takes to be adventurers. :p
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I fully admit I can't compete with the likes of purple, drith or Hidden when it comes to grinding in archaic throwbacks ;)

Give me something a little more immersive and visceral. At least give me some damned voice acting!
 
purpleblob said:
But what you consider "weakness" is not really a weakness for others ;)
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So assuming you had 2 areas, you would prefer both these areas to use exactly the same map rather than both areas having distinct maps?

HiddenX said:
The thing is: Maps have to be re-used in Kingmaker, because so many things happen.
(In real life many things happen on the same map everyday).
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You seem confused. Kingmaker uses the exact same map for completely different areas. That doesn't happen in real life does it? Actually I suppose it happens in China :) They build entire town's using the same template :)
 
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bjon045 said:
So given the option of having 2 areas, you would prefer both these areas to use exactly the same map?
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Trust me:

Purple does not - and will not - admit to things like this in public.

She's exactly like my beloved mother when she's arguing with my beloved father :)

I thought I was stubborn, but jesus!
 
bjon045 said:
So given the option of having 2 areas, you would prefer both these areas to use exactly the same map?
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I would prefer the different looking map :)

But what you seem to consider a major issue didn't bother me slightest because I simply think there wasn't noticeable amount of reused maps.
 
DArtFlash said:
Trust me:

Purple does not - and will not - admit to things like this in public.

She's exactly like my beloved mother when she's arguing with my beloved father :)

I thought I was stubborn, but jesus!
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Really? :)

Yep, you just never learn - I'm just going to wait till you go away again.
 
purpleblob said:
I would prefer the different looking map :)

But what you seem to consider a major issue didn't bother me slightest because I simply think there wasn't noticeable amount of reused maps.
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"Major" is relative for the game. For a very good game like Kingmaker I consider it a major issue because there are so few other issues and it is the most severe of them. It reduced my enjoyment of the game certainly but only by a small amount (say 5%).

  • Re-use of maps (-5%)
  • Repetitive final chapter (-5%)
  • Remaining bugs (the most annoying for me was Legendary Proportions increasing the characters selectable area to be far larger than it is supposed to be)(-5%)

Total score 85% :)
 
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purpleblob said:
Really? :)

Yep, you just never learn - I'm just going to wait till you go away again.
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Really :)

My father never learns, either.

It's called being emotionally invested in "not being wrong" - rather than in "being objective".

Even the best games on the planet have weaknesses. The key is whether or not you like the game despite these weaknesses - and whether you consider them big or small weaknesses.

But denying that they exist (to you or in general) is futile - and can never lead to a productive exchange.

Which is why you're making the right choice by waiting for me to go away :)
 
bjon045 said:
"Major" is relative for the game. For a very good game like Kingmaker I consider it a major issue because there are so few other issues and it is the most severe of them. It reduced my enjoyment of the game certainly but only by a small amount (say 5%).

  • Re-use of maps (-5%)
  • Repetitive final chapter (-5%)
  • Remaining bugs (the most annoying for me was Legendary Proportions increasing the characters selectable area to be far larger than it is supposed to be)(-5%)

Total score 85% :)
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Fair enough :) Well, let's hope Owlcat deliver a good surprise for us both and other fans with Wrath of the Righteous. I have every confidence they will! :)
 
bjon045 said:
You seem confused. Kingmaker uses the exact same map for completely different areas. That doesn't happen in real life does it? Actually I suppose it happens in China :) They build entire town's using the same template :)
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No I'm not confused - resusing map-parts is so irrelevant for my gameplay experience, that I really haven't noticed it.

Hint: I am still playing RPGMaker games and have a lot of fun with it - re-using map parts is pretty common :)

I noticed that several areas where used for more than one event and/or quest, which is completely fine for me.
 
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The only time I really notice reused areas is if they are first person/third person affairs. Isometric games are generally okay for reusing assets; as long as there is some creative mixing of elements and context it is fine. I think this is because of the overview type perspective and theatre of the mind involved in those types of games.

Baldur's Gate had a lot of the same house interiors and pubs/taverns etc but that made sense given the middle ages period. Craftsmen during the age of guilds were required to make things exactly to spec and were not allowed to add creative touches or risk being removed from the guild. The renaissance saw that change with freer markets, and competition became a thing. So repetition of architecture and furnishings is actually apart of the setting believe it or not.
 
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DArtFlash said:
Keep in mind that these traditional isometric party-based CRPGs aren't my favorite kind of game.

I personally consider them quaint and more like archaic throwbacks - and they have to be really, really good for me to stay engaged.
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I suspect this basically sums core of the issue. There are people around here that would pick BG or P:K over RDR2 any day of week. Suppose unlike you. I get that you look for different things in your games then what party based, isometric cRPGs prioritise. There are millions games outr there, no need to expect particular game should change to fit your nature better.
 
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