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Default Am i spoiled by Skyrim and Oblivion?

June 2nd, 2015, 06:23
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Sorry, DArt, I'm not sure where the article was, but I remember reading that Morrowind made a ton of under-the-hood dice-roll checks, especially compared to the relatively simple formula of Skyrim. Someone much more technical than I am wrote an article about it and gave examples, and the complexity was quite high. Good luck finding that article now, though.

Edit - Actually, it was a YouTube video made about Morrowind, discussing why the author felt it was still worthwhile in 201x. There was a segment about the determining dice-roll factors of combat and it was quite impressive. I'll continue looking for the exact video and see if I can find it.

Edit #2 - Here you go, I found it and this link should take you exactly to 9:00, which is when the segment starts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0jiOpD-AQ
Thanks

I've listened to it, and it doesn't sound more complex than most CRPGs. I think his point is that it's too complex for a PnP system, which I would agree with. Then again, so are most CRPGs - as they don't have to worry about the time it takes to calculate and put all those things together.

I don't see how the Morrowind formula is more advanced than Skyrim, just because there's more random chance involved - as that's about the player actually hitting the enemy, physically.

However, Skyrim also includes things like armor, stamina, magic bonuses, skill level, weapon damage and so on.

But where Skyrim is much better and arguably more complex, is in the amount of combat moves available as well as the passive perks that add to the complexity and richness of the system - where Morrowind only had 3 pre-set kinds of attack, and each and every weapon was more effective using just one of those, meaning there was no variety whatsoever during melee combat.

Then we have the much more advanced stealth and archery mechanics - both of which have a lot of perks on top of the standard combat mechanics - and I consider the overall combat system both much better and more complex in Skyrim.

But I get that some people prefer not to have their own personal skill involved in combat, and that's cool. Morrowind is likely better for that kind of player - as you can rely entirely on your stat sheet.

More old-school, you could say.

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June 2nd, 2015, 14:53
More reliant on stats and pen-and-paper-style mechanics, in my opinion.

I often think about what it would be like to play a turn-based Morrowind, or at least a Morrowind with real-time-with-pause combat. I think very highly of Might and Magic VI's combat system, would have loved to have seen something like that in Morrowind. I only bring this up because with the huge amount of spells and interesting effects at your disposal in Morrowind, combat goes by too quickly to really utilize everything to its max potential.

I think I will always prefer a stat-heavy system over a streamlined, modern approach because that's what I grew up with. I used to even create my own RPGs on paper and outline every stat for every item, every character, etc. I loved that side of RPGs and it was a big reason why I fell in love with the genre, and it sticks with me even today.

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June 2nd, 2015, 15:31
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
More reliant on stats and pen-and-paper-style mechanics, in my opinion.

I often think about what it would be like to play a turn-based Morrowind, or at least a Morrowind with real-time-with-pause combat. I think very highly of Might and Magic VI's combat system, would have loved to have seen something like that in Morrowind. I only bring this up because with the huge amount of spells and interesting effects at your disposal in Morrowind, combat goes by too quickly to really utilize everything to its max potential.

I think I will always prefer a stat-heavy system over a streamlined, modern approach because that's what I grew up with. I used to even create my own RPGs on paper and outline every stat for every item, every character, etc. I loved that side of RPGs and it was a big reason why I fell in love with the genre, and it sticks with me even today.
I grew up with PnP and stats myself, but I've always found immersion to be more important and yielding a more powerful experience. To me, stats tend to remind me that I'm playing a game - and then I get taken out of the world I'm in.

I'd agree that Morrowind has more visible stats, where Skyrim is much more visceral - and even the numbers and mechanics are presented in as immersive a way as possible, with perk trees being "Guardian Signs" instead of merely skills on a sheet.

To me, more visible stats aren't necessarily better - as I care more about how combat works and flows than about how many visible stats are involved.

But I can see the appeal, and I do like certain stat-heavy systems myself. Usually, that has less to do with the stats and more with how they're being used, however.

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June 2nd, 2015, 21:11
The simple fact that RPGs "back in the day" actually had these numbered statistics was a big draw for me. It was sort of an awe factor, like wow, this Iron Sword does 22 damage, and this Steel Sword does 38 damage! When I was jumping on a Goomba's head in Mario Bros., there was none of that.

For some reason, that whole world deeply resonated with me, and in large part, still does.

Now, I'm also a fan of how these stats are actually implemented, but I just drool over games like Morrowind, Arcanum, D&D RPGs, etc., because of all those chunky stats and number games.

Stats also help me define the characters in my head more clearly, knowing which advantages/disadvantages a particular character has, what sort of odd quirks they might possess, and so on. It helps to paint a detailed picture for me that I really enjoy.

I'm thankful that games like Skyrim exist, but it's not quite my "ideal game". The game I would develop would rely more on the pen-and-paper world. I also love dice-rolls for damage, hit chance, and that sort of thing.

So, a first-person RPG with the interactivity/open-world design of Morrowind, the dungeons of Skyrim, the beauty of Oblivion, the character/stat system of ToEE or NwN, topped off with a real-time-with-pause or switchable turn-based combat system would be my ideal RPG.

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June 3rd, 2015, 08:53
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
The simple fact that RPGs "back in the day" actually had these numbered statistics was a big draw for me. It was sort of an awe factor, like wow, this Iron Sword does 22 damage, and this Steel Sword does 38 damage! When I was jumping on a Goomba's head in Mario Bros., there was none of that.

For some reason, that whole world deeply resonated with me, and in large part, still does.

Now, I'm also a fan of how these stats are actually implemented, but I just drool over games like Morrowind, Arcanum, D&D RPGs, etc., because of all those chunky stats and number games.

Stats also help me define the characters in my head more clearly, knowing which advantages/disadvantages a particular character has, what sort of odd quirks they might possess, and so on. It helps to paint a detailed picture for me that I really enjoy.

I'm thankful that games like Skyrim exist, but it's not quite my "ideal game". The game I would develop would rely more on the pen-and-paper world. I also love dice-rolls for damage, hit chance, and that sort of thing.

So, a first-person RPG with the interactivity/open-world design of Morrowind, the dungeons of Skyrim, the beauty of Oblivion, the character/stat system of ToEE or NwN, topped off with a real-time-with-pause or switchable turn-based combat system would be my ideal RPG.
Thank you for your thoughts

Yes, I think I can appreciate your position more now.

Don't get me wrong, though, I really like stats as well - but I'm just more about immersion.

But when an RPG does not focus on immersion, I tend to appreciate stats a lot more. For instance, I absolutely love the complex mechanics of Divinity Original Sin. I'd love the mechanics in PoE as well, if only I agreed with the design of the system. I think it's a very bad design, where I love the D:OS design. PoE developers sacrificed way too much fun for the sake of balance - which I think is incredibly stupid in a singleplayer game. They also went overboard with the importance of tanks and went straight for a generic MMO trinity system, foregoing the glorious mess of D&D. But I guess it works for players who enjoy 90% of fights being nearly identical.

I just don't think you can combine a truly immersive RPG with a stat-heavy system. Well, not in a way that I can imagine, anyway. To me, immersion is about suspension of disbelief - and I really need to feel like I'm not gaming a system to get truly lost.

In that way, I really appreciate how a game like Skyrim retains a lot of RPG systems and depth - but does so in a way where the complexity is mostly "under the hood" and I can let go of my obsession with numbers.

That said, Skyrim is way too easy and Bethesda have a very lazy approach to level scaling and balancing overall. That's probably my main complaint with their games.

That goes for ALL TES games, by the way. They undervalue the intricacies of a proper RPG system - and they don't think it through.

So, to me, games like Morrowind and Skyrim are both WAY too shallow in terms of mechanics and balance. I just prefer Skyrim, because I love Perks and Shouts - where Morrowind doesn't have enough toys.

That said, I do appreciate that the Spellcrafting system in Morrowind is great for people who enjoy magic and customization. Personally, I prefer systems with predefined spells - because they tend to have a lot more variety and flavor. I don't really think custom spells are as fun in the long run, as you end up with a handful at best - and they'll work for the entire game.

I like "messy" and quirky spells, and I love the D&D spells - for instance.
Last edited by DArtagnan; June 3rd, 2015 at 09:04.

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June 3rd, 2015, 15:36
I think I love Morrowind's system because it is a playground for experimentation. You can build endless characters using the stat system, by assigning different Major and Minor skills, as well as playing with Birthsigns, Racial Traits, starting Character Attributes and more.

I'm honestly not sure if Skyrim retained most of that stuff, if it did, I simply forget because it's been awhile since I played.

I also love the "messiness" of D&D spells and stat systems like the one in Arcanum. Were they "balanced"? Probably not. But they offered unlimited customization and experimentation to play with, and that is more important to me than a strict balance.

I have to just shake my head at the approach of many modern games now. You often hear statements like, "We only have 3 classes, but man, are they balanced!!". I would rather 30 wildly different, unbalanced classes than a handful of perfectly balanced ones, but that's just me and seems to not be the popular opinion of game designers nowadays.

I guess the nice thing is that systems like Morrowind's, Arcanum's, etc., still exist and are mostly playable on modern setups, that way we can still toy with them when we like. Hopefully it becomes trendy again to have those "beautiful messes" and incredible reaching and aspirations of the older generation of RPGs.

I think games like Pillars of Eternity, Wasteland 2, etc., are steps in the right direction. Not perfect, but probably the best we've got on a large scale right now.

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June 4th, 2015, 11:27
I'm honestly not sure if Skyrim retained most of that stuff, if it did, I simply forget because it's been awhile since I played.
Skyrim has a more dynamic character system, where you build your character as you play - instead of defining one from the beginning.

It does have racial traits with stat differences - but the signs are integrated into main game choices, and the attributes have been boiled down to health/stamina/mana.

But, instead, it has a very elaborate perk system coupled with a shout system.

Again, not much in way of visible stats to experiment with at creation - but I think customization is much more interesting, because of how important perks are for defining your role. They're more like toys than incremental adjustments.

If I have a problem with the system, it's that the game is way too easy - even on Master difficulty.

Then again, Morrowind was also very easy. TES games have never been good for balance, as they're so freeform and open to the player.

You can always find some way to exploit the game, and I guess we just have to live with that if we want such huge open games. At least until someone figures out how to properly balance a game with that much freedom and player choice.

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June 6th, 2015, 21:30
I didn't really connect with my character in Skyrim the way I did in Morrowind. In Morrowind, I felt he was clearly defined, and there seemed to be more attributes in play that made him unique. In Skyrim, while the character is still unique with the use of perks and stuff, he was largely forgettable for me.

If given the choice, I would take the stat-based, class-style approach of Morrowind in an RPG. I also love the character creation in the D&D RPGs, such as Baldur's Gate, Temple of Elemental Evil, NWN and so on.

Sure, Skyrim makes it easier for casual players to jump in, and that's great. Skyrim is still a deep and rich RPG that I enjoyed greatly and still do. However, I would still have to cite Morrowind as my favorite Bethesda RPG, and the stat system underlying the game has a lot to do with that.

Skyrim does have fantastic qualities, though. It's a game I've got to re-play some time with a few new mods and sink back into the frost northern realm of immersion.

I do hope for a true spiritual successor to Morrowind someday, whether it's made by another company (probably) or Bethesda themselves. Hopefully it would include turn-based or RTwP combat.

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June 9th, 2015, 05:24
Morrowind is still my favorite Elder Scrolls game, partially for how characters were created, but more so because it felt like my decisions mattered a lot more. It was fun making decisions how to deal with the different houses and guilds, knowing the deeper in I got with some of them, the more others would hate me after. This practically doesn't exist. Even choosing Imperial or Stormcloak doesn't feel weighty. I used to like having to choose between stuff like the Mages' Guild and Telvaani back in Morrowind, knowing it was going to have consequences.
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June 9th, 2015, 05:32
Originally Posted by Kaspian View Post
Morrowind is still my favorite Elder Scrolls game, partially for how characters were created, but more so because it felt like my decisions mattered a lot more. It was fun making decisions how to deal with the different houses and guilds, knowing the deeper in I got with some of them, the more others would hate me after. This practically doesn't exist. Even choosing Imperial or Stormcloak doesn't feel weighty. I used to like having to choose between stuff like the Mages' Guild and Telvaani back in Morrowind, knowing it was going to have consequences.
Morrowind is my favorite TES game as well, but I wouldn't claim C&C as a strong point. To be honest none of those game really have any C&C to speak of.

Even in Morrowind, you could become head of almost every faction in the same playthrough.
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June 9th, 2015, 05:40
You can become head of every faction except the houses.
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June 9th, 2015, 14:57
Grandmasters of the Fighters and Thieves guilds is complex to achieve in the same playthrough, you need to do things in the right order.
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June 9th, 2015, 18:52
Yes, it's tricky.
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June 9th, 2015, 19:54
I really need to replay Morrowind. I never did finish it, except for the mage guild quest line. I'd need that mod that JDR keeps mentioning though. It has aged badly and I've got a little graphics whore in me
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July 4th, 2015, 14:09
Are there any major combat overhauls for it? I'm fine with the mechanics, but I remember how, past 20 hours or so, you could have superman stats and there was no real challenge left.
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July 15th, 2015, 08:16
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
I really need to replay Morrowind. I never did finish it, except for the mage guild quest line. I'd need that mod that JDR keeps mentioning though. It has aged badly and I've got a little graphics whore in me
try my gallery, I think around 12 pictures

http://imgur.com/9zhwILj,jFbH8iw,KLx…uW5L,j5P6W4d#0

yes its heavily modded with custom shaders
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July 20th, 2015, 02:38
Originally Posted by BoboTheMighty View Post
Are there any major combat overhauls for it? I'm fine with the mechanics, but I remember how, past 20 hours or so, you could have superman stats and there was no real challenge left.
Not really. A few that improve things a bit (IIRC Combat Enhanced is one that allows active blocking) and a few people have made valiant attempts to do some sort system similar to Oblivion but the underlying mechanics make it pretty hard to achieve. If you really want a bit better combat get Morroblivion and play MW in the Oblivion engine.

I don't think the 20hrs comment holds water though. Doing Tribunal or Bloodmoon requires a bit of beef on your character, esp the latter. From memory MW's mobs aren't as scaled as the later games so regular inconsequential encounters aren't going to be difficult after the first half dozen levels. But yes once you get up around level 30 things aren't to tough in general, I think it'd take more than 20hrs to get there though…. Then again maybe my mod setup makes my game a bit different, I've never played through vanilla MW tbh.


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July 25th, 2015, 16:21
Well…I've checked over the nexus and Morrowind mods recently…is it me or are kids a lot more horny these days?
I think it's a fine thing…it bodes well for the survival of the human race.
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