Gamasutra - More Politics (and Economy) in RPGs

Elel said:

Of course we need more politics. Both as political correctness\inclusivity and as wars of factions, subtle conspiracies, betrayals, etc. The goal of most games to battle some ancient resurrected evil (which is evil b\c it's evil) or some Empire (which is evil b\c it's evil) is getting old. Something more complex and realistic is very much desirable. And something unpredictable…

People above wish to have an RPG like Game of Thrones. Arguably what makes GoT so good is that it's unpredictable. Anyone might die, anything at all might happen, it follows no predictable traditional pattern. I'd love for games to have that much complexity, as well.

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Game of Thrones is very much based on history (war of the roses) which is what makes it so good. I've always wanted television to do what its doing. Hopefully games follow suit. I wonder what an RPG focused on political correctness would look like?

What if you set the RPG in ancient times? An ancient society based on PC values would aim at not disadvantaging any group in society in theory through policies and language. But how would that work in practice with limited resources and technology? Some segments of society naturally have more power than others such as warriors and mages. Could magic undermine any attempt at creating an even playing field? Would mages be shackled and controlled for the sake of equality? Would warriors demand more power and how would you deal with those demands?

Maybe this nation is up against barbarian nations focused on unity and strength who are run by a warrior caste? How do they combat these barbarians without making concessions to the warriors and mages? It would be interesting. What I wouldn't expect is for rpgs to be set in some ideal society without asking tough questions of those values.

@Silver, that sounds great, I'd love to see such games. Too bad you aren't a game scenario writer, in that case we'd have better chances . And although it's an unpopular opinion these days, but I love Bioware for some complexity they add to their games. For example, mages are shunned in their DA universe, which makes it very realistic. I'm sure that even without threat of demonic possession people would have an issue with mages. Otherwise it would be like having a caste of people in our world who could kill with a glance and nobody would be afraid! Absurd! With possession added, we get an even more complicated situation. I like how they handled that.

Elel said:

@Silver, that sounds great, I'd love to see such games. Too bad you aren't a game scenario writer, in that case we'd have better chances . And although it's an unpopular opinion these days, but I love Bioware for some complexity they add to their games. For example, mages are shunned in their DA universe, which makes it very realistic. I'm sure that even without threat of demonic possession people would have an issue with mages. Otherwise it would be like having a caste of people in our world who could kill with a glance and nobody would be afraid! Absurd! With possession added, we get an even more complicated situation. I like how they handled that.

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Its such a shame that Dragon Age didn't back up the narrative with gameplay consequences more often. In Baldurs Gate 2 if you used magic in Athkatla the Cowled Wizards would warn you to get a license; do it again and they would fight you. The politics of the world were reflected in gameplay and made the world more interesting. With Dragon Age 2 magic had no consequence despite the prohibition on Blood Magic. I agree about the possession part potentially adding some interesting consequences but in reality possession always happened to npc mages you could do anything with, which made allying with mages an obvious bad choice.

Of course another consequence of shackling mages is perhaps that they keep their presence a secret and live out in the wilds away from civilization. Probably more likely than mages allowing themselves to be shackled now that I think about it.

Silver said:

I agree about the possession part potentially adding some interesting consequences but in reality possession always happened to npc mages you could do anything with, which made allying with mages an obvious bad choice.

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Oh yeah, I allied with mages and was shocked when the First Enchanter got himself possessed on purpose and we had to fight him. Idiot! At least get yourself possessed when you're in the crowd of foes, not in the crowd of allies!

Sure, Bioware could do a better job executing the conflict with mages, but right now it doesn't have competition in this regard, so it's hard to judge them harshly. Witcher series if the only franchise in which magic is feared by many, which is great, but we don't get involved in a conflict like that. Well, maybe once, in the very first game when we had to choose whether to kill the witch or not.

@Elel
I think CD Projekt will overtake Bioware in this department but it might involve techno-wizards (Cyberpunk 2077) instead. Mind you Deus Ex: Mankind Divided is probably going to be a good substitute in the meantime with the hacking I saw in the last video causing a Mechanical Apartheid.

Yep, I was wondering why no one mentioned DR:HR & MD yet

I am so intrigued by all Troika game concepts but I'm afraid to run them because every single one of them did something to my PC (BSOD)...

I did manage to run Arcanum but I got beaten by character creation page followed by wolves.

purpleblob said:

Yep, I was wondering why no one mentioned DR:HR & MD yet

I am so intrigued by all Troika game concepts but I'm afraid to run them because every single one of them did something to my PC (BSOD)…

I did manage to run Arcanum but I got beaten by character creation page followed by wolves.

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You know if you watch Chris Avellone play Arcanum he had the exact same problem. Someday people should remake Arcanum in the infinity engine. Once it becomes open sourced that is, but until then...

Its got to beat a turn based/real time system compromise and it looks a heck of a lot better graphically too imo.

@Silver, CDPR is an openly sexist company that makes sexist games, what kind of politics can they tackle? I'm not interested in their projects. They were lucky to rip off Sapkowsky (whose books weren't sexist until CDPR spoilt his magnificent universe), so when they create their own game they'll probably fail hard. And I'll be praying for that!

On another hand, I eagerly await the next Deus Ex

The kind of politics that appeal to their customers.

As to it being politics, devs struggle with topics that are much less complicated than politics.

What it is about here is not politics but giving players the feeling of power they look for. Like that single PC that is going to determine the fate of the whole universe...

elco said:

Journalists (apparently even gaming ones) just can't resist the urge to push their cultural Marxist agenda on everything they touch. It is disgusting.

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How should the opposite of that look like, according to you ?

Silver said:

Its such a shame that Dragon Age didn't back up the narrative with gameplay consequences more often.

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Gaider talked about it a few times. In DAO, they originally wanted to had the Templar issue with Lyrium addiction for the player, but they cut it because it wasn't fun gameplay...it's not even mentioned unless it's a NPC (which is dumb, sure cut the annoying gameplay, but keep the lore stuff). In DA2, they had planed quests if you were a mage and negative impact if you went blood mage, but it ended up on the cutting floor because they didn't have the time to add similar stuff for warrior and rogue.

BioWare is very gameplay over lore/story consistency. Also, a bit too focused on fairness among classes/content (hence DA2 ending with 2 boss fights, originally you only fought Orsino if you sided with Meredith…of course Meredith always goes crazy because of the sword).

Elel said:

@Silver, CDPR is an openly sexist company that makes sexist games, what kind of politics can they tackle? I'm not interested in their projects. They were lucky to rip off Sapkowsky (whose books weren't sexist until CDPR spoilt his magnificent universe), so when they create their own game they'll probably fail hard. And I'll be praying for that!

On another hand, I eagerly await the next Deus Ex

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I'd be interested to know what you find sexist about the Witcher games if you feel like sharing. Depictions of a racist, sexist society such as the Witcher inhabits are not the same as advocating for such a society. Was it the sex cards? The depiction of certain characters? Maybe some cheap titillation? I find it valuable & interesting to see such depictions because the writers can ask interesting questions in that kind of setting.

That and people in a harsh setting often make less than ideal decisions about all sorts of things for understandable reasons if you think about it. That and you get to side with whomever you please from the major factions or even walk a neutral path. I haven't read the books so maybe you could illuminate me on what the key differences are that turned you off the games?

azarhal said:

BioWare is very gameplay over lore/story consistency. Also, a bit too focused on fairness among classes/content (hence DA2 ending with 2 boss fights, originally you only fought Orsino if you sided with Meredith…of course Meredith always goes crazy because of the sword).

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I don't know about Bioware lore/story consistency, but they can really ease up with "fairness among classes/content", because it creates issues like in DA2. I personally hated how Orsino meets his fate. Up until that point, he was one of a very few "sane" characters (along with Thrask) I've come to like. Very disappointing.

Silver said:

Depictions of a racist, sexist society such as the Witcher inhabits are not the same as advocating for such a society.

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Using those thematics as selling points, marketing arguments are enough by themselves.

In that type of products, the player is vying for power, so much power that through the PC, the player desires to shape the entire universe.

Apparently, the possibility that this power is used to end the sexist character of the depicted society is not something CDR Projekt feels would spur the sales.

These video products are no longer books that are limited to depiction and forces the reader on the back seat.

Players want an active seat, they desire power, they crave for making an impact.
An impact that is not about ending sexism or racism.

The bystander posture no longer works. Players are actors and they desire the biggest part possible.

The first one of the Witcher games IMO definitely sexist but they learned from that and made Witcher 2 & 3. That said as games they werent that great, though no.3's flaw was the fact that it was too long.

Silver said:

I'd be interested to know what you find sexist about the Witcher games if you feel like sharing. Depictions of a racist, sexist society such as the Witcher inhabits are not the same as advocating for such a society. Was it the sex cards? The depiction of certain characters? Maybe some cheap titillation?

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The Witcher isn't depicting a sexist society, it distorts the already existing universe to depict a sexist society like the Polish one on purpose, to appeal to Polish boys more. Their culture is about "being a man", with all that comes with it. Clothes on female characters are horrendous, they were never dressed like that in the books, it's a new addition, and calling that "cheap tittilation" doesn't reduce the impact. Did you know they sold pictures with naked women in the game package, too? It never even occurred to them that a woman might buy the game. And the breast physics on those pictures are deeply unrealistic.

And don't even get me started on Geralt's sexist behavior in the game. It was disgusting. Didn't you notice?! I can try to unlodge my repressed memories of the game and provide a few examples if you didn't. I don't really like to discuss such topics online, b\c I always expect some misogynist to pop up and spoil my mood, so I'd prefer to finish the topic with this post, but if you need examples I can come back and post a couple of them.

I haven't read the books so maybe you could illuminate me on what the key differences are that turned you off the games?

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I can say one thing to clear everything up without having to go into details: I've seen pieces of Sapkowsky's Witcher novels cited on feminist sites in my country many times! Can you imagine what kind of novels they must be to get cited on feminist sites as examples of book characters speaking the truth about the world we live in?

His books are good satire fantasy, which uses political topics. His characters criticize the society we live in indirectly through criticizing the world he created, since the issues his characters address are ours. These issues include racism, gender, sexual identification, etc. As a result, the games couldn't be farther from his novels than they are. It's like someone touched gold and gold turned into wood.

Sapkowsky's Witcher novels are pretty much my favorite fantasy read, I read them long ago when the Witcher games didn't exist. And them addressing hot topics correctly is one of things that made them so good. He didn't simply depict sexist society, he depicted how all those individuals in his books struggled against it and typically prevailed. However, the game portrays only one side of society, the one that the author portrayed as something to overcome. I guess the devs of the game didn't get all those messages from his books and noticed only fighting and sex and decided to create a game about fighting and sex in a sexist world

@Elel
I have heard of the controversies around depictions of female characters in the Witcher. I didn't leave the Witcher 1 with a negative perception of the women in that game. Albeit some of the nakedness was overboard and agreed on the boob physics being weird. (A certain green dryad comes to mind.) I accept that fantasy that has a certain look or style to it should be faithfully reproduced so it is disappointing to hear this was not so. I would hate for d&d to be presented in a style that seemed at odds to the world itself and recent games certainly can be criticized for that.

To me this sounds like a Lord of the Rings novel fan who doesn't like the movies version which I totally accept. It sucks when you go in with expectations with a property only for that expectation to be trashed. Not picking up on thematic elements is sadly par for the course in terms of a work being transferred to a different medium. Maybe the developers couldn't work out a way for these characters to have that thematic voice without breaking the narrative? Most writers working in games will never be as good as a novelist is at exploring these themes because games aren't linear.

I've only played the first Witcher to completion and only part of the Witcher 2. I always sort of expect a certain crudeness from Eastern European games and the Witcher was their first game so I largely dismissed it as a developer finding their feet. As for Geralt I found him to have a very dry wit but not a particularly engaging persona. The sex stuff in the Witcher 1 was a certain immaturity I think, not a deliberate act of disrespect. I think it will be good for this developer to work on an original property so that they can explore genre conventions where there are less existing expectations. I never expect perfection because everyone has a different idea as to what that is and I've been disappointed too many times since. Baldurs Gate 2 ruined rpgs for me :-(

Elel said:

The Witcher isn't depicting a sexist society, it distorts the already existing universe to depict a sexist society like the Polish one on purpose, to appeal to Polish boys more. Their culture is about "being a man", with all that comes with it. Clothes on female characters are horrendous, they were never dressed like that in the books, it's a new addition, and calling that "cheap tittilation" doesn't reduce the impact. Did you know they sold pictures with naked women in the game package, too? It never even occurred to them that a woman might buy the game. And the breast physics on those pictures are deeply unrealistic.

And don't even get me started on Geralt's sexist behavior in the game. It was disgusting. Didn't you notice?! I can try to unlodge my repressed memories of the game and provide a few examples if you didn't. I don't really like to discuss such topics online, b\c I always expect some misogynist to pop up and spoil my mood, so I'd prefer to finish the topic with this post, but if you need examples I can come back and post a couple of them.


I can say one thing to clear everything up without having to go into details: I've seen pieces of Sapkowsky's Witcher novels cited on feminist sites in my country many times! Can you imagine what kind of novels they must be to get cited on feminist sites as examples of book characters speaking the truth about the world we live in?

His books are good satire fantasy, which uses political topics. His characters criticize the society we live in indirectly through criticizing the world he created, since the issues his characters address are ours. These issues include racism, gender, sexual identification, etc. As a result, the games couldn't be farther from his novels than they are. It's like someone touched gold and gold turned into wood.

Sapkowsky's Witcher novels are pretty much my favorite fantasy read, I read them long ago when the Witcher games didn't exist. And them addressing hot topics correctly is one of things that made them so good. He didn't simply depict sexist society, he depicted how all those individuals in his books struggled against it and typically prevailed. However, the game portrays only one side of society, the one that the author portrayed as something to overcome. I guess the devs of the game didn't get all those messages from his books and noticed only fighting and sex and decided to create a game about fighting and sex in a sexist world

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Are you polish and did you read the books in polish language? I don't agree with most of the things you says as I read the books in English and wondering if something got lost in translation...

Silver said:

To me this sounds like a Lord of the Rings novel fan who doesn't like the movies version which I totally accept.

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To me it sounds not so innocent at all. It's not a different vision, it's selling to the world something quite disgusting. Great example for all to follow once they see what sells.

There were some random things bad in the first Witcher (like a starving elf offering her body after you give her food), but the third installment is worse overall.

The sex stuff in the Witcher 1 was a certain immaturity I think, not a deliberate act of disrespect.(

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Of course it's not deliberate, these people think and feel this way and think it's normal. They'd ridicule you even for caring about it. Just about a week ago I foolishly asked to suggest me an RPG with particular requirements in a Slavic forum. I was offered "girly" games and told that Dragon Age: Origins is too hard for a woman, and that some other game is too "manly" and "brutal" for me. My mistake was obviously picking a female nick… That's how people think over in those parts of the world. And after I poured some crap on their heads in my last post I was told by someone in a PM that "they didn't mean any disrespect when they say it, they're good people". Well, excuse me, but if they didn't mean disrespect, they maybe they meant respect? Coz for me it didn't sound like that… And then that person in PM proceeded to say that women in Witcher 3 are dressed like whores b\c that's what they are in the game: whores. I don't even quite understand his logic, apparently a woman who has extramarital sex is a whore for him, but I know already whose PMs I won't be replying to anymore.

Just one example for you from Internet, although I can see it all in daily life just as well. It's impossible to talk to such people. Don't tell me that they don't mean it. They mean it. Why do you even feel compelled to defend CDPR? Why must I go soft on them? Whatever the excuse, that's how they feel and they totally mean it. They believe that's how the world really is.

lostforever said:

Are you polish and did you read the books in polish language? I don't agree with most of the things you says as I read the books in English and wondering if something got lost in translation…

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Not in Polish, I read in another close Slavic language. I don't think stuff like that could be lost in translation! You probably didn't pick up on it. It's not like Sapkowsky is writing a sermon, he just makes characters behave in "inappropriate" ways. Stark example: Cirilla, while being captured in another world, expresses repulsion with pregnancy and says that babies are like parasites, which makes all women around offended. One taboo broken, after all, in Slavic countries you can't possibly say such a thing without being shunned (abortion is even banned in Poland). And you can't be bixesual without being hated by everyone, while Cirilla is. There are lots of little things like that. Women, especially from the Lodge of Sorceresses, discuss men in an unfavorable terms. I think you probably failed to appreciate all that b\c it's normal thinking where you live, but for a Slavic country books like this are either blasphemous or like revelation. That's the sole reason they're being cited on feminist blogs, such literiture is extremely rare.

I'll unsub from this thread, sorry if you wanted to reply, but I can get emotional over such topics and I want some peace right now instead

Silver said:

@Elel
To me this sounds like a Lord of the Rings novel fan who doesn't like the movies version(

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Tangential. The universe in TW video products is sexist or not. It does not depend on an faithful adaptation.

When it is not perceived as sexist, it is useless to point at a failed adaptation as an explanation for the perception.

People who have not read the novels might reach the conclusion that the universe in TW video products is sexist.

People who have read the novels are in a position to determine whether the feature comes from the novels.