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September 7th, 2021, 01:18
Originally Posted by purpleblob1 View Post
I'd disagree that Owlcats don't know how to write a good evil path - there are many evil companions in WotR and they are all fantastically written (especially Regill, god I love that purple gnome).

It's more that they the main character who are evil aren't given the same nuance (which is what the PCGamer article said, I think?)
Yeah the companions were perfectly written the problem was your character.

That's what I was talking about. Same problem with both games actually.
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September 7th, 2021, 01:25
Aye have to agree and I was going to add him in my first comment. Regill is a really good example of a well written evil character. I thought he was excellent.

I have tried evil a few times and always turn good. Simply can't get into it. I hate hurting people, or being cruel, in general terms even in games. I don't mind bashing a jerk or asshat but in general prefer live and let live.

No way of knowing but wish I could know what the ratio is. I only have ad-hoc evidence from forums and discussions that the majority seems to prefer good or neutral.
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September 7th, 2021, 01:56
I forced myself to play evil (Dark Side) in KoToR years ago and hated it. I think most people want to be the hero in any game they play and we usually don't think of evil as being very heroic!!
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September 7th, 2021, 02:04
True but it's called fantasy and sometimes I just want to be evil.
Bow to your new god peasant.

Hardest thing I had to do was kill mission in KoToR.

Gasp…I just spoiled a twenty year old RPG.
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September 7th, 2021, 04:38
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
I think the issue here ist not the game complexity itself, but the chosen adventure path being about repelling a demon invasion as the chosen hero. That's inherently a role for a somewhat altrusitic person. And altruism is the one thing that doesn't fit evil characters.

I dunno about that. Hulrun is super into repelling the demon invasion but I certainly wouldn't call him altruistic.

I think it would be relatively easy to justify a chaotic or evil character in the context of repelling the invasion. Angling to benefit from it in power/riches (neutral evil), angling to defeat the leaders of the invasion so as to take their place (chaotic evil), considering the Abyss to be a muscling in on territory the PC would prefer to rule anjd doing it in an unforgivably messy way (lawful evil), etc. This is just off the top of my head.
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September 7th, 2021, 04:41
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post
Aye have to agree and I was going to add him in my first comment. Regill is a really good example of a well written evil character. I thought he was excellent.

I have tried evil a few times and always turn good. Simply can't get into it. I hate hurting people, or being cruel, in general terms even in games. I don't mind bashing a jerk or asshat but in general prefer live and let live.

No way of knowing but wish I could know what the ratio is. I only have ad-hoc evidence from forums and discussions that the majority seems to prefer good or neutral.
I have always preferred to play good aligned characters in any RPG I play. Part of that is I'm usually uncomfortable being horrible, and part of that is that most games don't support evil choices in a non cartoonish or non-blow it all up kind of way. BG2 supported a seflish but not murderous kind of evil pretty well.

One of my favorite Let's Plays of all time is "My Name is Not Lily" who took an evil character named Lily Black through a bunch of games. The Neverwinter Nights playthrough is by far my favorite, and by far his most ambitious. He certainly made it seem possible (and fun) to be evil.
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September 7th, 2021, 06:12
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
BG2 supported a seflish but not murderous kind of evil pretty well.
Perhaps, but it failed miserably when it came to evil companions. There weren't even enough to have an all-evil party if one wanted.
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September 7th, 2021, 07:58
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I dunno about that. Hulrun is super into repelling the demon invasion but I certainly wouldn't call him altruistic.
Well, I didn't say that all good characters are altruistic (although that mostly fits) but that evil characters are not altruistic. Also Hulrun is Lawful Neutral.
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September 7th, 2021, 08:10
I've pretty much abandoned any idea about playing evil in rpgs.

The issue, I always felt, was that evil would normally feel like just plain stupid. Like that fable about the scorpion and the frog (I think it was frog) were the moral is that the scorpion just can't help itself.

Like in some rpgs where the evil choice is to kill a seller of magical items for a modest sum of gold, despite the fact that the guy has really useful stuff for sale and restocks once in a while.

Or being insulting & hurtful in conversations despite the fact that "honeyed lies" should yield far better results.

Or making really malicious decisions out loud… while you have a paladin and holy cleric in your party standing right next to you, judging every word.

Imo. if I should ever follow an evil character path, it should be a *very* subtle thing, not the blatant "bull in a china shop" approach that games normally offer.

Alternatively, you could say that I'm always following an evil crpg path. I am looting corpses all over the place, sometimes killing people who probably didn't deserve it. I make most decisions based on maximum utility for myself & my party and I try to maximimize profits & rewards all the time, even though that might be "bloodsucking" at certain times. .
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September 7th, 2021, 12:57
It's a lot easier for me to play evil in 4X games. Playing as the evil necromancer in HoMM 3 or the evil warlord in Eador is great fun. In single-player cRPGs, it's harder for me to play evil. Feels a lot more personal in RPGs.
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September 7th, 2021, 14:21
Originally Posted by Darkheart View Post
For me it is surprisingly unbuggy. Although, I sometimes have trouble with my keyboard stopping to work or doing weird stuff (like locked direction keys). The first one had similar problems, though not for me.
I had the same problem. I googled it and it's now fixed. You just have to delete a DLL file in your game folder. It was certainly annoying but I'm glad there's it's an easy fix.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/11843…4779767210298/
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September 7th, 2021, 16:08
Originally Posted by vanedor View Post
I had the same problem. I googled it and it's now fixed. You just have to delete a DLL file in your game folder. It was certainly annoying but I'm glad there's it's an easy fix.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/11843…4779767210298/
I had this issue while I was in the Blackwing Library. Keyboard froze. I hesitate to do anthing with this DLL because of all the mixed messages. Some people are saying mouse, some are saying keyboard. Some are saying rename the file, some are saying delete. I think I'll just do what I did the first time (unplug, replug and wait) and hope it doesn't happen often.
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September 7th, 2021, 17:52
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I had this issue while I was in the Blackwing Library. Keyboard froze. I hesitate to do anthing with this DLL because of all the mixed messages. Some people are saying mouse, some are saying keyboard. Some are saying rename the file, some are saying delete. I think I'll just do what I did the first time (unplug, replug and wait) and hope it doesn't happen often.
Well, I decided to just rename the file since if I had trouble after, I could just rename it back easily. It worked fine and I never had my keyboard problem after.

If it just happened to you once, it's no big deal. But for me, it was starting to happen a bit too often.
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September 8th, 2021, 19:43
Originally Posted by Morrandir View Post
What you really mean is most likely not math, but numbers. Numbers only are a part of mathematics.
And when it comes to numbers and sort of things happening to or with them, it's not easy to precisely describe these things with words. When you use words without numbers, you loose precision or even truthfulness. So I guess that's why words without numbers don't make much sense here.
I come from a side, so to say, that feels so much underrated in gaming : Words.

Cynically put, words are merely considered a necessary nuisance than a too to flesh out a world.
To replace words, graphics are used. And mathematics is dominating everything. I have never seen a game in which words actuallly matter. Games like Epistory are merely a fluke.

I … think I can go even so far … to say that precision is a men's thing, and math skills are therefore a men's thing.

Words, however, are considered to be more a woman's thing - and thus dismissed, as everything woman is still considered as "soft", "weak", "childish", whereas men are supposed to be strong, manly, and precise in their attack blows against anyone else.

This is my guuess why math is so much overrated - and tabletop war games are based on calculating. There's very, very, very few diplomacy going on in war games … only slaughter and fallen, bloody bodies of enemies.

No-one even thinks of avoiding a fight, because avoiding a fight (for example through diplomacy) is not manly !

The game "The Dungeon Of Naheulbeuk" plays this out very good, with the Barbarian and the Dwarf ALWAYS rushing into fights - even those which could have been avoided through talking - without having the even tiniest bit of empathy, of diplomacy, of anything,. They are a caricature of manly men there - they don't think, they fight !
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September 8th, 2021, 23:23
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post
Aye have to agree and I was going to add him in my first comment. Regill is a really good example of a well written evil character. I thought he was excellent.

I have tried evil a few times and always turn good. Simply can't get into it. I hate hurting people, or being cruel, in general terms even in games. I don't mind bashing a jerk or asshat but in general prefer live and let live.

No way of knowing but wish I could know what the ratio is. I only have ad-hoc evidence from forums and discussions that the majority seems to prefer good or neutral.
Hello all! I've been reading this blog for years and finally decided to post. I just had to agree with wolfgrimdark. I am often tempted to try out an evil character in an rpg to see the different story lines but end up stopping as I feel horrible being evil… Glad to see I'm not alone!
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September 9th, 2021, 13:37
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I come from a side, so to say, that feels so much underrated in gaming : Words.

Cynically put, words are merely considered a necessary nuisance than a too to flesh out a world.
To replace words, graphics are used. And mathematics is dominating everything. I have never seen a game in which words actuallly matter. Games like Epistory are merely a fluke.

I € think I can go even so far € to say that precision is a men's thing, and math skills are therefore a men's thing.

Words, however, are considered to be more a woman's thing - and thus dismissed, as everything woman is still considered as "soft", "weak", "childish", whereas men are supposed to be strong, manly, and precise in their attack blows against anyone else.

This is my guuess why math is so much overrated - and tabletop war games are based on calculating. There's very, very, very few diplomacy going on in war games € only slaughter and fallen, bloody bodies of enemies.

No-one even thinks of avoiding a fight, because avoiding a fight (for example through diplomacy) is not manly !

The game "The Dungeon Of Naheulbeuk" plays this out very good, with the Barbarian and the Dwarf ALWAYS rushing into fights - even those which could have been avoided through talking - without having the even tiniest bit of empathy, of diplomacy, of anything,. They are a caricature of manly men there - they don't think, they fight !
You may have a point here, but before you were talking about something else:
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I'm always surprised - I still am - that no-one even tries to explain math based mechanics with words !
My point was that if you have "math based mechanics" they are more easily explained with math, not with words.
It was not about the necessarity to have "math based mechanics" in a video game.
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September 9th, 2021, 15:42
Originally Posted by Bruceson View Post
Hello all! I've been reading this blog for years and finally decided to post. I just had to agree with wolfgrimdark. I am often tempted to try out an evil character in an rpg to see the different story lines but end up stopping as I feel horrible being evil… Glad to see I'm not alone!
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September 9th, 2021, 18:37
Originally Posted by Alrik Fassbauer View Post
I come from a side, so to say, that feels so much underrated in gaming : Words.

Cynically put, words are merely considered a necessary nuisance than a too to flesh out a world.
To replace words, graphics are used. And mathematics is dominating everything. I have never seen a game in which words actuallly matter. Games like Epistory are merely a fluke.

I … think I can go even so far … to say that precision is a men's thing, and math skills are therefore a men's thing.

Words, however, are considered to be more a woman's thing - and thus dismissed, as everything woman is still considered as "soft", "weak", "childish", whereas men are supposed to be strong, manly, and precise in their attack blows against anyone else.

This is my guuess why math is so much overrated - and tabletop war games are based on calculating. There's very, very, very few diplomacy going on in war games … only slaughter and fallen, bloody bodies of enemies.

No-one even thinks of avoiding a fight, because avoiding a fight (for example through diplomacy) is not manly !

The game "The Dungeon Of Naheulbeuk" plays this out very good, with the Barbarian and the Dwarf ALWAYS rushing into fights - even those which could have been avoided through talking - without having the even tiniest bit of empathy, of diplomacy, of anything,. They are a caricature of manly men there - they don't think, they fight !
Actually many newer games have more words than entire novels.
Also, several games offer diplo only solutions like Colony Ship RPG by IronTower and (as far as I know) Encased does too.
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September 9th, 2021, 19:13
I agree with Pladio on this. So many games I have played recently are chocked full of lore and story stuff. I think if you have an agenda to grind then you can always find some information to support it at the cost of ignoring other aspects.

My friend plays Warhammer and diplomacy in those games is a HUGE thing, he is always talking about the factions and having to work on diplomacy.

Many games I play have diplomacy or non-fighting options to avoid combat.

Granted I tend to prefer games that have lots of options as combat is not my main thing in gaming. If you love combat you can certainly find a lot of games that focus on it.

On the other hand I think its wrong to say that is the only kind of game. Most of the games I play have a variety of options.

I believe there was a post about Encased that said you can finish the entire game, or most of it, without killing. I know there is a knock unconscious option for combat and lots of ways to sneak or talk ones way out of combat.

Anyhow there are plenty of games out there that provide broader focus then combat with plenty of words.
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September 10th, 2021, 08:41
I believe Alrik's point isn't that there aren't enough words, but rather that the focus is on conflict and power and usually that violence is the primary (and, game mechanics wise, most satisfying) way to get it. Words are usually the "second class option". Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Alrik.

And the quality of writing is usually not that good. The medium itself makes it hard, especially in a game with many choices, and where lots of writers need to cooperate. And if there is a choice between keeping a mediocre story or having to spend lots of man hours to change everything the story ties into to improve it, most companies will keep a mediocre story due to time and cost restraints.

There are exceptions, like Disco Elysium, but then the game mechanics weren't that great.
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