RPGWatch - Game of the Year 2013 Voting

Yea, this topic gets debated quite a lot. You probably don't pick up on it because it's not a topic that interests you, where as I mentally collect every mention of someone with a similar phobia to myself.

This is an interesting little forum thread where they try to establish the first 'party-based combat' isometric RPG:

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/first-rpgs-with-real-time-party-based-isometric-or-pseudo-iso-combat.86807/

Of course, the very very first computer RPGs were just writing on the screen. I remember my brother playing one on the ol' ZX - You have found ROPE - LOL

Kordanor said:

I prefer the First Person cam a lot because it's more immersive whereas the Shouldercam is the cam for console players due to the limited control capabilities.

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I don't agree with that at all.

When you say "Shouldercam", I assume you're referring to third-person. Whether something is third or first person, the controls are still the same. It's only the perspective that's different. There's also nothing about first-person that requires more control capabilities than third-person, and there's nothing about third-person that makes it more suited for consoles.

As far as immersion is concerned, it's completely subjective. For me, immersion has more to do with the atmosphere and setting than the camera view.

JDR13 said:

For me, immersion has more to do with the atmosphere and setting than the camera view.

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Well, that is absolutely correct. The camera view is second to that. But it is important. Otherwise you would not have games, which are as immersive as possible setting on such a view. Amnesia being the most prominent example. Wouldn't work as good in 3rd person. Dead Space kinda did it in third person, but they used a rather unconvenional 3rd person cam, where you have even less overview than if you played the game first person.
I mean just let's go to the extreme and take oculus rift. If first person wasn't more immersive the whole thing wouldn't work in this way.

Whether something is third or first person, the controls are still the same. It's only the perspective that's different. There's also nothing about first-person that requires more control capabilities than third-person, and there's nothing about third-person that makes it more suited for consoles.

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It all goes hand in hand. In first person you normally need controls which can immediately focus on a specific spot on a screen which doesn't work with a controller. Controls with a controller almost always use crutches like auto aiming. E.g. auto aiming in first person is a little odd - you'd either have a moving crosshair in your otherwise "immersive" screen, or your whole screen would wobble around (or your shots just arrive at a different spot you were aiming at). In a 3rd person view something like that is much more natural.
And I am not only talking about auto aiming from shooters here but also from games where you fight in melee. You automatically jump forward in the direction of your opponent. This is something which is more suited for console controls, which are less precise and "compensate" that by having a bigger overview going 3rd person.
Just look around and check where you normally find 1st person and 3rd person games. Elder Scrolls for example: While Oblivion had 3rd person cam and controls, it wasn't optimized and it was hardly playable that way. That was changed for Skyrim, as 3rd person is essential for the console market. So all previous TES games were played in 1st person and once the step to consoles was done it's 3rd person (while 1st person still works).

This doesn't mean that the perspectives are exclusive of course. MMORPG mechanics often require more overview for example and therefore go 3rd person.

Just saying that a "natural" console game uses a 3rd person cam.

I've never found first person particularly immersive, as I don't view the world through a box or frame. Eyes are capable of viewing the world at 120 degrees, meaning I can see almost my entire body while still seeing what's going on beside me, in front of me and above me. A few quick turns of the head allows me to see everything going on around, below or above me. First person games would need to have bowl shaped monitors in order to copy how the eyes work, and it still wouldn't account for the fact that we also have other senses, such as feeling air currents, smelling and so on.

I'm not saying third person is a lot more immersive than first person; I'm saying it doesn't really matter because neither view take into consideration most of our senses and how they truly work. Our real perception of the world around us is infinitely superior to anything ever seen in a game.

I personally prefer third person as it allows me to see what's going on around me, which is done effortlessly in real life due to the stuff I've pointed out above. It has nothing to do with realism, I just don't like seeing the world through goggles.

I've always found first person significantly more immersive, personally.

Immersive meaning that I get the feeling of actually being in the world - instead of controlling an avatar that's in the world.

That said, some third person games are so immersive that I tend to forget I'm looking at someone else.

Dead Space is a good example.

Games like the Infinity engine games are very different, and I don't for a second feel like I'm part of the world in those.

Definitely, 1st person is much more immersive. What is more immersive to you, wearing glasses that block your normal sight and show you a video from a camera above and behind your head, or putting your hands to the sides of your eyes so you lose peripheral vision? I don't know about you, but I'm almost positive I'd feel more like 'me' without the camera view.

This discussion (on POV / camera) can hinge on immersion. Particularly I think it refers to personal immersion, i.e. someone feeling as if they are in the game themself.

What is missing, often, in such discussions is whether or not personal immersion is DESIRED.

I think that's a matter of taste, but often it is spoken of as if it is a complete (or at least near) universally desired trait.

Myself, I can find personal immersion fascinating - you forget it is a game, you forget you are using controls, and you, yourself, are flinching at, or even attempting to personally dodge, incoming attacks. Nothing quite beats climbing a mountaintop in an open world game and scanning out across the land (Skyrim is about the best at this, currently.) For this, FP POV is, arguably, best.

BUT it isn't what I prefer from a game. I like getting lost in the story and role-playing, a different kind of immersion where you lose sense of SELF and are only focused on something outside of you, forgetting about you for the time. That's the immersion I want best - not putting myself in a game, but for the span of playing the game just not thinking about myself at all. And FP POV makes that harder, not easier, as FP POV is (ostensibly) trying to put YOU in the game.

1rst person doesn't do it for me at all. In fact, I often skip games that only have 1rst person as the limited, boxy view pulls me out of the game if anything. It doesn't capture a realistic field of view and that drives me nuts. I already know I'm not the character on the screen, I want to see them and how their look changes as equipment is upgraded. Things like that always make the experience more immersive for me.

What view is more immersive depends on the circumstances. If I'm forced to play a dumb warrior orc with a big axe in third person (like in Of Orcs & Men) I don't find myself identifying with him easily. But if that's someone else whom I can identify with, I feel more immersed playing in 3rd person that I ever would in 1st person.

And in case when you just plainly dislike the character, 1st person helps, this way you can pretend the character to be someone else. I've done that A LOT. (To be fair, I've done that in 3rd person, too, with a bit of imagination you can just ignore what you see on screen as your in-game avatar)

Merin said:

FP POV makes that harder, not easier, as FP POV is (ostensibly) trying to put YOU in the game.

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I don't see the problem, to be honest. You can imagine whomever you like in 1st person, not necessarily yourself as you are in real life, with your real personality and appearance. This way it has the same effect of forgetting about yourself. I never imagine my own self in games. It was interesting to learn that someone does that.

Kordanor said:

And I am not only talking about auto aiming from shooters here but also from games where you fight in melee. You automatically jump forward in the direction of your opponent. This is something which is more suited for console controls, which are less precise and "compensate" that by having a bigger overview going 3rd person.
Just look around and check where you normally find 1st person and 3rd person games. Elder Scrolls for example: While Oblivion had 3rd person cam and controls, it wasn't optimized and it was hardly playable that way. That was changed for Skyrim, as 3rd person is essential for the console market. So all previous TES games were played in 1st person and once the step to consoles was done it's 3rd person (while 1st person still works).

Just saying that a "natural" console game uses a 3rd person cam.

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I'm really not sure where you get that idea from. There is no natural camera view for console games. If having to use a controller was such a problem for first-person games on consoles then there wouldn't be so many of them.

Your Oblivion example also doesn't make sense, as that game was clearly made for consoles first and then ported to PC.

Now if you were to simply say that mouse+keyboard is superior to controllers for first-person games then I would wholeheartedly agree. That will never change, but it also doesn't have much of an impact on what camera the devs choose for their console titles.

JDR13 said:

Your Oblivion example also doesn't make sense, as that game was clearly made for consoles first and then ported to PC.

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Indeed. It was a wrong example as XBox was the lead platform as it seems.
Guess I mixed that up with Morrowind.

Yeah, I really liked Morrowind's UI. For me, that was the last TES game that didn't feel console-centric out of the box.

Because it was the last of them that wasn't developed primarily for consoles

Elel said:

I don't see the problem, to be honest. You can imagine whomever you like in 1st person, not necessarily yourself as you are in real life, with your real personality and appearance. This way it has the same effect of forgetting about yourself. I never imagine my own self in games. It was interesting to learn that someone does that.

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If you are pretending the character you are playing is NOT the character the game acknowledges, you are engaged in a very special kind of head-canon that has nothing to do with the game. If the game has you playing Lara Croft, but you are imagining it is Indiana Jones, or you, or Zapp Brannigan, you are kind of working against the game. More power to you, I'm not saying that you are 'doing it wrong', but I think pretending the main character is someone other than what the game is designed for the main character to be is a discussion wholly separate from cameras and immersion.

As for 'putting oneself in the game', I never do that and I was shocked when I learned others do that at all. But I learned that YEARS ago. I still find it odd, cause I don't do it at all. I mean, I don't try to identify with the main character, nor do I make the main character act as I would, or make choices I would. I'm not playing a video game or table top role-playing game as some kind of virtual sport. I'm almost completely out of focus with 'me' when gaming, as opposed to, say, a basketball player or even a chess player who is clearly thinking about themselves and how they can win.

FP POV is trying to pull you into the game, make you feel like YOU are the main character (or, at the very least, inhabiting the main character's POV / POR.) Third person over the shoulder is pulling you out of the character and reminding you that you are controlling a game character. Isometric or top down camera are pulling you back further from the character and reminding you that you are playing a game that is much larger than one character.

I don't think first or third person really makes a difference in terms of immersion for me. A game like Risen is just as immersive as a game like Morrowind. It's more about the feeling and atmosphere of the environment for me.

I don't know if immersion is a correct term here, but I certainly do detest first person view. While the "view" of the game might mimic the how a person views the surrounding, I find it very frustrating how I can't judge the distance between myself (PC) and the surroundings. I don't know how many times I jumped to next platform/bridge/whatever it is and fell to my death. I don't know, I just hate first person view. That's one of the biggest reasons I couldn't get into TES game.

Merin said:

If you are pretending the character you are playing is NOT the character the game acknowledges, you are engaged in a very special kind of head-canon that has nothing to do with the game.

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Maybe. But I do that a lot, not even by planning, it happens naturally. It's mostly about gender for me, it's simply not very interesting to play as someone of the opposite gender.

Merin said:

As for 'putting oneself in the game', I never do that and I was shocked when I learned others do that at all.

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What do you do then? I don't understand why you say that you've got a different persona in games, yet one of camera views still tries to put *you* in the game. Why is that a problem, if it isn't you anyway.

Merin said:

FP POV is trying to pull you into the game, make you feel like YOU are the main character (or, at the very least, inhabiting the main character's POV / POR.) Third person over the shoulder is pulling you out of the character and reminding you that you are controlling a game character.

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Years ago when I preferred first-person shooters I'd fully agree with that. I thought that third-person view makes games less immersive and avoided them. Then I started playing third-person games and discovered, with time, that they weren't less immersive at all. Others have pointed out how nice it is to see new gear on your in-game characters, it really adds to the feeling of immersion. It's all relative, a matter of habit.

But I certainly agree with your accessment of isometric view. It feels very removed.

purpleblob said:

That's one of the biggest reasons I couldn't get into TES game.

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You can play TES (at least Morrowind on), and the new Fallouts, completely in 3rd person view. Helps to grab a 3rd person crosshair mod and sometimes looting can be a pain (ie: sometimes the crosshair shows up further to the right on screen than where the game "sees" it, sometimes just easier to scroll into 1st person for those items).

Maybe it comes down to semantics, as is so often the case.

Immersion, for me, is about forgetting that I'm playing a game and feeling like I'm taking part in the fantasy.

For whatever reason, that's easier to achieve for me when I'm not looking at a party or an avatar - because I'm the sort of person who identifies with my actions in a game. I don't "act the character" - I act myself, as the character - if that makes sense.

Which means party based games are significantly less immersive to me, even if they're using first person perspective. Unless, of course, it's a party based game where I'm clearly the protagonist and I just have some followers - though I definitely prefer solo games for immersion.

So, the perspective is just part of the equation - and I'd say games like The Witcher or Risen are more immersive than Grimrock or Might and Magic - because I'm just one person.

But for "ultimate" immersion, I'd have to point towards first person games, including System Shock, Thief, Bioshock Infinite, Skyrim, and so on. Even though a game like Risen can be extremely atmospheric and immersive - it doesn't QUITE make me feel part of the fantasy on that same level.

That said, I must admit that Dead Space did manage to scare me and make me feel part of the world unlike most third person games. So, maybe the perspective isn't quite as vital as I think it is. However, the camera view IS kinda untraditional in DS - which might be a factor.

Another big factor is the premise and the setup of the game. Some games excel at building up tension and creating a scenario that I can easily lose myself in - where as some games just dump you in the action without making you care.

Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite are both games with EXTREMELY strong premises - making them extra immersive.

The first Gothic game was also particularly powerful in its premise, and it was very easy for me to identify with the concept of that prison colony - and they did a fantastic job of setting up the various camps and characters. So, the first Gothic is probably the strongest, for me, when it comes to immersion.

Beyond that, it's vital for me to be the "author" of my character as much as possible. I'm taken out of the game if I have to play a well-defined character, and The Witcher is a pretty good example of that. Sure, the world and the atmosphere are both very strong - but Geralt is a very defined character, and it's harder for me to lose myself in that world because of that. Thankfully, he's a character that I can identify with - but it would have been better for immersion if I got to create my own character.