Amazing games consigned to the dustbin by lazy developers

Fortunately, I'm Norwegian. And I agree that there are things 'important beyond money'. But I don't think games belong to that category.

That's perfectly fine, that's what I'm trying to establish with this thread.

Are computer games art?

Should computer games be preserved, or should we treat them like disposable commodities?

We are all new (in a humanity sense) to the concept of gaming, and there's no 'correct' answer yet.

But will people one day mourn the fact that some games are lost forever in the same way we lament the loss of a few episodes of Dr. Who now?

Or should we just accept that game survivability is an arbitary and chaotic darwinian mess that we shouldn't 'care' too much about?
 
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The word 'lazy'

Dude, this is a thread, not just a title, we've moved on from the title now. You don't believe devs are lazy, that's fine, we've understood your opinion on this. Have you anything else to contribute?
 
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Dude, this is a thread, not just a title, we've moved on from the title now. You don't believe devs are lazy, that's fine, we've understood your opinion on this. Have you anything else to contribute?

Is this your way of admitting you were being completely unreasonable when you called developers lazy?

If yes, we can move on.
 
Well, let's not kid ourselves. You're not going to admit being unreasonable - and you're not going to suggest a solution to the real problems causing games to be unplayable on modern systems.

You're just going to repeat that it's an issue over and over again, as if that was useful or news in some way, right?

Yeah - ok.

You can have your whining thread to yourself ;)

Have fun!
 
I'm happy for you to disagree with me that 'someone' is being lazy, yes. You can debate the semantics of words on any thread of any topic. It doesn't help if it doesn't help solve the problem though. If you don't feel there's a problem then that is also a valid position to take. It would be more 'interesting' in the context of a 'thread' if you provided some logical reason why one of the most popular and beloved games is 'unimportant' when it comes to 'backward compatibility', giving some logical expression as to why computer games might be more akin to soap operas rather than Oscar winners...
 
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> Are computer games art?

Now, that's an interesting question, and one difficult to answer. After all there is no objective and no generally accepted definition of art. Because of that, many subscribe to the view that what's called art is art, basically including everything. I prefer a more restricting definition, but not as elitistic as often found at the academies and among art critics.

A definition that makes sense to me, and which is shared by at least two artists I'm familiar with, both dead, are this one: Art is reality, seen through a temper. The important part is the temper, art doesn't have to be realistic. A painting may be a faithful rendering of a scene, natural or virtual - that doesn't make it a piece of art. It may be very well done - still doesn't make it art. There has to be somethibg more to it.

I'll give you an example: I like to draw and paint. I consider my self an above average amateur artist, especially when drawing, perhaps not so much as a painter. But I know how to draw a face.

I once drew a picture for a friend of mine. It was a portrait, made by charcoal, of his daughter. Based on a photo, The dràwing was very well done, it definitely looked like her. But it was nothing more than a reproduction of the photo. While the photo may have been art, the drawing was definitely not. I know, because I made it.

OTOH, I have made several self-portraits, both drawings and paintings. I usually don't look in the mirror when I do those. Which means that I don't necessary get all details correct, but the likeness is sufficient so that you can see it's me. But the important point is, those selfies reflect how I see myself, how I feel about myself at that particular time. Those pictures are art. Not necessarily good art, but they have that (hard to-define) extra (a soul?) to them. They're art.

As I said, this is my personal definition, it makes sense to me. And from that I draw my personal opinion about games as art (drums, please): With very few exceptions, games are not art. Being well done, very entertaining, having great graphics, in short an excellent game doesn't in itself make it art. There has to be somethibg more.

In my opinion, Skyrim is one of the most beautiful games I've ever played. I've enjoyed it tremendously. But I don't consider it art. Planescape Torment otoh, is a game that to me has that little extra. By exploring the different incarnations of the nameless one, and the fundamental question, "what can change the nature of a man", it's a game that still makes an impression on me, it still makes me think, many years after I played it. Another example would be the swedish adventure "The Yearwalk", but unfortunately I cannot precisely explain why at the moment, except that it's different from everything else I've played. So much for a generally useful definition.

So, in short, are games art (didn't I just answer that one?). Some may be. Most aren't. According to….

… pibbur who admits that, while he quite often makes sense to himself, not all he says makes sense to others. And who enjoys a couple of mmos, but not for their artistic value.
 
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Oh, so easy to say. Really, standard blame shuffling and philosophical clap-trap. Such fine eulogising to say nothing that encourages has-been games some additional pressure to be kept alive. Work-arounds and unlikely options as a substitute for positive action.

Perhaps?

Or?

Computer games are not media like we know it?

If I buy a book, I can own that book my entire life. The book will never change. If looked after well, the book may well last long after my lifetime. The written word can change over milleniums, via problems of translation (book-patches), but the original text is always available in its original form.

Likewise, film and television has the means by which it is easily transferred from one technology to the next. Small changes are noticed and identifiable (film/tv-patches), but the core product will never really change that much. It is quite feasible to ensure you can have access to your favourite film/tv throughout your entire life.

But for some reason we don't have any human desire to apply this concept to computer games. As if there is no form of 'community preservation' when it comes to computer games. Computer games are treated like penny dreadfuls that had no sales. They are treated like soap opera episodes.

Computer games have no sense of 'the original', continually altered and perma-patched beyond recognition until their time of natural death somewhere in the cycle of 5/10 year technological upgrades. Out with the old, in with the new. Like philistines marching through an ancient city of wonders, tearing down masterpieces to build military bunkers and grain barns.

If Steven King was told his books would become technologically unviable, he would find a way to make his products viable again - because he has pride in his canon. Steven Kings fan's would apply social pressure to make King's work available in their original form. Like-wise, Spielburg and Spielburg's fans would do the same for all his products.

But computer gaming does not have this core human sense of continued access? That suggesting such a desire for such an access is somehow… idiotic? Stupid? Unreasonable? Where content creators are not expected to 'care' for their own product and where fans are not 'expected' to continue their access desires?

I would say that this is a very unusual and 'unexpected' state to suggest humanity be 'meekly accepting' of…

I completely agree with these statements. I'm glad that I seem to finally have found a like-minded person in these forums. ;)

"Total Cost Of Ownership" (TCO) is only regarded for business software. That's why Windows 7 has an XP "emulation" built in in the first place. It was never about gmes.

I have once met a similar mentality with an security software representative on the CeBit fair in Hannover, Germany.

The result from this discussion was that

- business data is considered worthy to be protected
- private data is not considered worthy to be protected.

We already live in a 2-class society : Everything business related is worthy to be protected - private life and everything belkonging to it is not.

Why is this so ? Because everything business represents so much more of an value - in money, mostly - than private ownership ever is able to.

That's why if a company gets out of business, OF COURSE the business Creditor gets paid FIRST - because, as an infamous German "Deutsche Bank" boss once put it : Craftsman's bills are only "peanuts" (see here for that : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilmar_Kopper#Controversy ).

This is - in my view - a direct result of Capitalism :
Capitalism ALWAYS favours wealth before anything else - and the more wealth a firm or an individual possesses, the more it pwns.

And that's why Lobby Groups are so effective : Because they argue that busines wealth has to be protected.
Private wealth is totally forgettable by their standards. Peanuts, so to say.


In fact, games are one "fire and forget" thing - even MMOs to some extend.
They are considered "bread and games" (after the ancient Roman motto).

Cynically put,
Games are meant to please the customer for a while, draw the money out from the purse, and then ... well, nothing is added to lengthen the TCO of games.
If a game was business software instead, any Lobby Group would get throufgh an emulating feature in the next Windows OS within a few minutes.

The Economy View considers customers as nothing but "cash cows", as tools to generate profits. As soon as the product life span has reached its end, it is dropped, because it doesn't generate any revenue anymore.

And that's so great about GOG : They don't care about any end of an product life cycle.



Okay, I admit it, this is quite an left-wing view of these things, but it's just the way I thought it through.
 
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An excellent rant there Alrik, I agree with a lot of its sentiments.

You should be wary of considering yourself left-wing with such views, however. This is another victory of the liberal elite, to make the conservative appear left-wing.

The terms left and right wing came about because the Tory (Conservative) party in the UK sat to the King's right in Parliament where as the Liberal (Industrial) party sat to the King's left. Hence slow, reactionary, rural, minimalist government came to be termed right-wing and fast, proactive, city, intrusive government came to be termed left-wing.

Pretty much all of modern politics is some form of left-wing. Hitler was technically a left-winger!

On the subject of conservation, if you believe in 'no change' and 'the preservation of the current before the application of the new', you are, in fact, expressing a very right-wing perspective :)
 
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Yeah man, DArtanion showed up with his book of internet meme insults :( A thread has only one way to to go at that point!
 
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Sigh. Play nice.
 
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Theres nothing keeping anyone from having a few extra boxes around to play the older games on. For awhile I was back on an old game kick and put together a DOS/WIN 95 box just for said purpose. Worked loads better than Dosbox (at a much higher inconvenience level - I've gotten spoiled not chasing down low level hardware conflicts or playing with memory allocation schemes).

Computer/Technology is analogous to Language. That book that you buy may very well be unreadable eventually, it just takes longer than a game because of the rate of evolution/advancement/change in computers is much faster than in human language. But railing against it seems particularly....I'm not sure...disconnected?
 
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Likewise, film and television has the means by which it is easily transferred from one technology to the next. Small changes are noticed and identifiable (film/tv-patches), but the core product will never really change that much. It is quite feasible to ensure you can have access to your favourite film/tv throughout your entire life.

Not really. How do your old VHS tapes play in a blu-ray player? Sure there are 3rd party programs that can record it to a PC and you could burn that to a disc and then play it, but that's no different than modders fixing a game for a new OS or you could go an buy the DVD or Blu-Ray version, but the fact is your old VHS isn't playing in a Blu-Ray player. If you encoded all your DVBR recordings to DivX or Mpeg2, do you expect that every new OS will play those formats natively?

Technology changes and the people that created content have no obligation to make sure it works with newer techonology. Now if you want to offer to pay them, than maybe you can get it done. Given that amount of bitching people have done about the BG:EE games though, not sure most people are willing to do that.
 
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The desire to crunch every topic down to 'money' is the problem is it not? Isn't that the entire issue between philistine/art?

Nobody 'pays' to look at a statue in a park. But someone goes to the effort to make a statue in the park…

Nobody 'pays' to look at a book in a library. But someone goes to the effort to make sure the library has whatever book someone wants…

Why is there no 'library' of games, where minimally paid 'volunteers' ensure games stay relevant? Like GoG.com, but on a level of humanity rather than on a level of 'profit'.

If you are American then… I understand… but most other nations have concepts which they consider 'important beyond money' that they enact for a sense of 'humanity'…

If you want to spend your time reprogramming old games, no one is going to stop you. Who should pay though? The government? Great use of taxes there.

As much as I love gaming, I don't think that the sense of 'humanity' is impacted by some old games not being playable.
 
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That's perfectly fine, that's what I'm trying to establish with this thread.

Are computer games art?

Should computer games be preserved, or should we treat them like disposable commodities?

We are all new (in a humanity sense) to the concept of gaming, and there's no 'correct' answer yet.

But will people one day mourn the fact that some games are lost forever in the same way we lament the loss of a few episodes of Dr. Who now?

Or should we just accept that game survivability is an arbitary and chaotic darwinian mess that we shouldn't 'care' too much about?

If you're so concerned with preservation of games, you should be pushing for old hardware to be put in libraries, museums or whatever to preserve these games, because the experience you get playing them on a modern machine is never the same as on the original hardware.
 
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Technology changes and the people that created content have no obligation to make sure it works with newer techonology.

I did read everything you wrote, I'm not just grabbing at weak spots for the sake of argument, but I feel this sentence sums up pretty much everything you've said. Everything you say about what 'we' should do about 'planned obsolescence' revolves around your view in this quoted sentence.

If I wrote:

"Technology changes and the people that created content have an obligation to make sure it works with newer techonology."

Because, for whatever reason, I had the law making power to do so, would my sentence be any more or less 'the right thing to do' than yours?
 
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