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January 29th, 2018, 17:45
Originally Posted by Gloomseeker View Post
You're welcome.

Of course my definition may seem narrow to you but the alternative is to embrace a broad definition and then a serious case could be make for any game featuring RPG elements to actually be considered an RPG and that's just another can of worms.

There is a reason why so many games come out with an RPG tag and that's the simple fact that calling a game an RPG will boost sales. It's not about being true to some exacting principles that hark back to some pen and paper roots shrouded in mystery, it's just about money plain and simple.

That's why I'm slightly annoyed (or amused depending on my mood) when I see yet another game being passed as an RPG when it does have pretty little in common with actual roleplaying.

Let's face it, RPG is now trendy and despite everything I've said that's a good thing.
I liked a lot of your post but damn, had to edit that *wall of text* down to the points that summed up the post best.
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January 29th, 2018, 18:53
I spent a few minutes going through several pages at the codex and i find it quite hard to believe the hate some people have against Original sin 2.

I mean, i get that there are people that did not like it, but it just looks a bit too hostile. Seems like there is a personal beef there.
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January 29th, 2018, 18:57
Originally Posted by Mortmal View Post
They are all 3D first person action RPG, of various quality but from the same subgenre.
No, they're not from the same subgenre. Being 3D and first-person is about all they have in common.
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January 29th, 2018, 19:05
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
That's why we're usually talking about cRPGs and not true RPGs.
While combat delegated to a player is always used as an example, what about puzzles where a player solves them for a "hero" diagnosed with inteligencia subnormalis. Or mixing pots where a player just does clicky clicky although character's alchemy is nonexisting. Not to mention games allowing masters of everything including blacksmithing expertise just because.

Nitpicking however won't lead us anywhere.
Regardless, Prey is not RPG. It's not even close to RPG. If it's RPG, then FarCry3 is RPG too. And it is not.
So just to be clear: Deus Ex isn't an RPG, too?
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January 29th, 2018, 19:09
I read through the comments off of that poll post, it seems most people - and the site mod themself - like D:OS2, not hate it. It's not an amazing RPG mechanically (or even in terms of the story) by any means - I needed half-a-dozen mods that changed how PHYS/MAG armor resisted status effects to make it playable, but it certainly was fun, which a lot of games simply forget how to do or be. Pretty to look at it, enjoyably VA'd, you can play it with a controller and develop more than 3 viable strategies to play. There are some branching-off points.

The problem was, as someone else basically said in the Codex thread, that was basically nothing else really going on. I hadn't heard of most of the other candidates, and they all frankly look terrible compared to D:OS 2 in scope and execution.

AFA the definition of an RPG, it is:
Any game that allows you to inhabit the role (not roll) of another persona in a way such that, the players' actions, through the proxy of that characters' decisions, affects the game-world and determines various outcomes within the game. People hate to hear this but a purely dialogue-based game with no combat, stat progression or the like would still be a roleplaying game if it satisfied that definition given. Whether it would be fun or of interest to people who grew up on a certain sub-genre of cRPG from the 90's onward is another matter (like myself).

I don't know where people have such a hard time with confusing dice-rolls and %-tables and stats-arrays with ROLE-PLAYING.
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January 29th, 2018, 19:48
Originally Posted by Sir_Brennus View Post
So just to be clear: Deus Ex isn't an RPG, too?
You mean a game where you can kill a boss early and then the game story adapts depending on if you killed her or just escaped?
Of course it's RPG!

More precisely it's hybrid, but still.
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January 29th, 2018, 19:59
Originally Posted by Dhraiden View Post
I read through the comments off of that poll post, it seems most people - and the site mod themself - like D:OS2, not hate it. It's not an amazing RPG mechanically (or even in terms of the story) by any means - I needed half-a-dozen mods that changed how PHYS/MAG armor resisted status effects to make it playable, but it certainly was fun, which a lot of games simply forget how to do or be. Pretty to look at it, enjoyably VA'd, you can play it with a controller and develop more than 3 viable strategies to play. There are some branching-off points.

The problem was, as someone else basically said in the Codex thread, that was basically nothing else really going on. I hadn't heard of most of the other candidates, and they all frankly look terrible compared to D:OS 2 in scope and execution.

AFA the definition of an RPG, it is:
Any game that allows you to inhabit the role (not roll) of another persona in a way such that, the players' actions, through the proxy of that characters' decisions, affects the game-world and determines various outcomes within the game. People hate to hear this but a purely dialogue-based game with no combat, stat progression or the like would still be a roleplaying game if it satisfied that definition given. Whether it would be fun or of interest to people who grew up on a certain sub-genre of cRPG from the 90's onward is another matter (like myself).

I don't know where people have such a hard time with confusing dice-rolls and %-tables and stats-arrays with ROLE-PLAYING.
So, Alter Ego is a roleplaying game? Never heart that one before…
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January 29th, 2018, 20:00
I think the bottom-line re: what a rpg is - is what Gloomseeker was talking about, everyone's definition of rpg will be different, from very small differences, all the way to huge differences of opinion. I tend to take the purist view of defining rpg's narrowly, because I think that is how words are basically best made useful and widely understood.

I'll give an example in terms of the current political climate: Basically, if everyone you disagree with politically is a "Nazi" in your eyes, then what that really means is no one is a Nazi, because the word has lost all coherent meaning by doing this, when taken to the extremes.

So, by the same token, if a game is a "rpg" because of certain elements or characteristics, no matter how minor, or incidental to the overall experience, then the definition of rpg becomes meaningless, ultimately. Anyway, I'm just restating what Gloomseeker was stating in his post. (which I obviously very much agreed with)
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January 29th, 2018, 21:02
Originally Posted by Dhraiden View Post
I don't know where people have such a hard time with confusing dice-rolls and %-tables and stats-arrays with ROLE-PLAYING.
I'm actually totally on board with that.

After all Gary Gygax used to say that a DM only rolls the dice because of the noise they make.

In fact it's entirely possible to imagine an RPG that doesn't rely on stats, rules or the throw of a dice. A lot will rest on the GM's shoulders but that can work.

The Amber RPG was an interesting experiment of a diceless game and it was totally fitting considering the setting.

The Vampire The Masquerade game did introduce a live action roleplaying variant with specific guidelines for a streamlined experience so that rules wouldn't get in the way (and no matter what rules should never get in the way).

Originally Posted by Arkadia7 View Post
I think the bottom-line re: what a rpg is - is what Gloomseeker was talking about, everyone's definition of rpg will be different, from very small differences, all the way to huge differences of opinion. I tend to take the purist view of defining rpg's narrowly, because I think that is how words are basically best made useful and widely understood.

I'll give an example in terms of the current political climate: Basically, if everyone you disagree with politically is a "Nazi" in your eyes, then what that really means is no one is a Nazi, because the word has lost all coherent meaning by doing this, when taken to the extremes.

So, by the same token, if a game is a "rpg" because of certain elements or characteristics, no matter how minor, or incidental to the overall experience, then the definition of rpg becomes meaningless, ultimately. Anyway, I'm just restating what Gloomseeker was stating in his post. (which I obviously very much agreed with)
Thanks for summing up my (long) post. I did get carried away with that wall of text…

And apart from that Nazi analogy (I do hate bringing up Nazis although I am very fond of the Wolfenstein games -totally not RPGs but still great games that allow you to slaughter Nazis by the dozens which is always good for the soul) I think you've summed what I tried to say pretty well.

Roleplaying is a very subjective thing and as long as you're enjoying yourself you can't go wrong no matter what other people say. I mean if you want to gather a few friends and roleplay the Adventures of Tintin using the D&D ruleset then go for it (pretty sure it's been done before anyway).

Whether we choose to call computer RPGs hybrids (which is what they are, Joxer does have a point) or label them as action RPGs it's up to each of us to decide if we'd rather take on a narrow view or a broad one.

Personally the only concern I have is that the current trend is blurring the line even further.

I assume publishers are advertising games as RPGs because the genre has become incredibly popular and there is some sort of brand recognition involved but as a consequence it would seem that the RPG tag is starting to lose its meaning.
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January 29th, 2018, 21:02
Originally Posted by Giovanni1983 View Post
I spent a few minutes going through several pages at the codex and i find it quite hard to believe the hate some people have against Original sin 2.

I mean, i get that there are people that did not like it, but it just looks a bit too hostile. Seems like there is a personal beef there.
Larian is Sjw , lgtb friendly , a bit too much sometimes even, for exemple in arx you find 2 lesbian couple 5 meters from each others some shopkeepers and some cleric getting executed.
Many new codexers, not the brightest ones and that's saying a lot, were attracted to the forums during the gamergate event thus the irrational hatred towards anything related to sjw or feminism and feel deeply threatened by those.

Codex being a niche site of rpg connoisseurs is over since a very long time.
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January 29th, 2018, 21:13
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Riiiight.
You beat me to it!
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January 29th, 2018, 21:15
Sad, but true. In many ways, I always liked the irreverent and free-thinking aspect of the Codex. I'd be posting there, except that, to me, it became more of a hivemind than sites like this, which they would denounce as SJW echo chambers. I find the Watch, for all its sins, a more natural balance of different characters.
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January 29th, 2018, 21:37
A bit offtopic, but did D'artagnan just delete his account again or what?
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January 29th, 2018, 21:45
Looks like it. Perhaps the pressing first-world problem of RPG-definition bigotry was too much for him.
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January 29th, 2018, 21:50
Well hopefully he can now sleep better. Discussing about rpgs and stuff shouldn't be such a serious matter…
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January 29th, 2018, 22:19
Whoa, that was unexpected…why would you take this so seriously, and delete your account, just because some people are disagreeing with you?

And I have to say, that I thought it was pretty weird and bizarre to bring up "bigotry" when talking about competing definitions of what a rpg is, I mean, seriously?? So, what would be next, maybe saying that people are racist who don't agree with you! Let's be real and not be so drama queenish, over-the-top and silly…

I'm a contrarian by nature, so if I see someone trying to silence other opinions by calling them bigots or any of those kinds of words, which is called "shaming language", that "triggers" my contrarian nature. Which is why I brought up the all-too-common-these-days use of "Nazi", that and other types of social tactic type language makes me want to jump into the fray immediately, just because I run counter most of the time.

Anyway, for the record, I liked many of New Dart's posts, and often agreed with him. I think he often made very intelligent and logical posts. That said, I think he could over-react at times, and this appears to be one of those times.
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January 29th, 2018, 22:36
I think it's always a shame when someone leaves something they clearly enjoy being a part of. If you find yourself reaching snapping point in the Codex GOTY thread, during the January blues, I'd recommend taking some time to reconsider.
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January 29th, 2018, 22:39
The thing is that he gets personal when you reinforce a strong disagreement with him. He needs to be right all the time. And when pressed gets nasty. I think he recognizes its not healthy.

I too enjoy his gaming ruminations (the shorter ones ), but he does have a tendency to piss people off (including me) when they disagree with him.
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January 29th, 2018, 22:45
Originally Posted by Dez View Post
A bit offtopic, but did D'artagnan just delete his account again or what?
Ack. I'm sorry to see that.
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January 29th, 2018, 23:03
Originally Posted by Dez View Post
A bit offtopic, but did D'artagnan just delete his account again or what?
Never fear, NewerDArt will be inbound shortly

Originally Posted by Mortmal View Post
Many new codexers, not the brightest ones and that's saying a lot, were attracted to the forums during the gamergate event thus the irrational hatred towards anything related to sjw or feminism and feel deeply threatened by those.
That is a big part of it, yes. I've also noticed on the Codex the trend for extreme edginess just for the sake of being edgy. Thus the DOS2 haters over there are tripping over themselves trying to express just how much they hate the game.
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