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February 18th, 2020, 21:13
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
None of that has anything to do with the act of targeting. AoE targeting in TB games is like shooting a stationary target; AoE targeting in RTwP games is like shooting a moving target with a delay between when you pull the trigger and when the weapon fires. The first thing is easier.
Ah, ok here we go.

You have two mages one with a fireball Mage (B) the other with a blink-teleport spell mage (A).
Mage A is in front with agro, Mage B is in the back trying to cast the fireball.
Right, two games…
One RTwp the other TB
In both games, you got the same skills… Blink and fireball… Both point and click targeting…
RTwp Game: You teleport the mage A from the front behind the Mage B who can freely cast the Fireball spell. Simple easy no one is even close to the targets for FF.

TB game: Mage A Fucked up his initiative roll. So is going last after all the enemies and mage B. Mage B is first one this turn but he can't cast his spell do to mage A being in the way.

The first example Rtwp: It's pretty easy to target the Aoe spell without hitting the mage A, cause he's not in the way… right?
Second example TB: It is impossible to target the fireball without hitting the mage A due to the TB system itself.
One easy is. The second one is impossible. Now you decided which one is easier…
The only way to fix this is to have a Group initiative and let the player pick the order of actions and not all RPGs do that…And if you do Group initiative, the side that starts first gets a huge advantage.
Last edited by Dolby; February 18th, 2020 at 21:29.
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February 18th, 2020, 21:15
@ChienAboyeur, you misunderstand. I don't claim you're actually factually wrong in saying BG is turn based, since as a matter of fact it is if you look at the mechanics. What I am claiming is that you aren't using the terms in the way that they are commonly perceived. That's your choice, but it doesn't make your already hard to interpret posts any easier to understand for people who aren't regulars on this forum. Perhaps you should focus less on being right and more on being understood, especially since you actually have really interesting insights to share once in a while when you aren't sprouting hyperbole about institutionalized double standards and superior people.

The "Trick"of reducing Turn based to simply mean UGOIGO was something that happened long ago in regards to computer games.
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February 18th, 2020, 21:44
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
Ah, ok here we go.

You have two mages one with a fireball Mage (B) the other with a blink-teleport spell mage (A).
Mage A is front with agro, Mage B in the back trying to cast the fireball.
Right, two games…
One RTwp the other TB
In both games, you got the same skills… Blink and fireball… Both point and click targeting…
RTwp Game: You teleport the mage A from the front behind the Mage B who can freely cast the Fireball spell. Simple easy no one is even close to the targets for FF.

TB game: Mage A Fucked up his initiative roll. So is going last after all the enemies and mage B. Mage B is first one this turn but he can't cast his spell do to mage A being in the way.

The first example Rtwp: It's pretty easy to target the Aoe spell without hitting the mage A, cause he's not in the way… right?
Second example TB: It is impossible to target the fireball without hitting the mage A due to the TB system itself.
One easy is. The second one is impossible. Now you decided which one is easier…
The only way to fix this is to have a Group initiative and let the player pick the order of actions and not all RPGs do that…
That is one very specific situation. I had that only happen in tight spaces and it was 100% of the time because I failed to position my party properly. AoE spells are not for tight spaces unless you don't have anything else available.

But that kind of situation can go either way. For example you have an enemy that can teleport or dash in front of your character. What do you do?

RT:
a) Target the enemy's current position. But in the 6s it takes to cast a spell the enemy had moved and your meteor shower or a fireball hits the empty ground.
b) Try to predict where the enemy will move. Since that is the enemy that teleports/dashes in front of your character, you will most likely hit your character as well.
c) Wait till the enemy uses their teleport/dash and then move your character away. But in that case that character suffers penalty for breaking engagement or is getting hit by attacks of opportunity. The enemy will follow you, too so it's hard to shake them off. Plus, while you're trying to position two of your characters so one can cast their spell they are essentially out of combat (they are not doing damage/bufffing/debuffing/healing); your other characters suffer.

TB:
a) The enemy goes first. It will most likely use up their action points if it teleports/dashes and will not be able to attack your character. Or if they don't, they won't be able to use their higher level abilities (unless it's some boss with ridiculous amount of AP). On your turn (depending which one of your character goes first) you either move your engaged character and suffer disengagement penalty or you position your caster so they don't damage your engaged character.

b) You go first. Congratulations! You just choose your spell and cast it on the enemy.
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February 18th, 2020, 23:10
Originally Posted by Ivanwah View Post
That is one very specific situation. I had that only happen in tight spaces and it was 100% of the time because I failed to position my party properly. AoE spells are not for tight spaces unless you don't have anything else available.
Yes, it's a specific case but it shows the nature of TB and its limits.
Where RTWp does not have those. Targeting is just one of the cases and you can plan, use skills, practice to overcome the problems you describe in RTWp. You can't do that in TB as its limits are hardcoded in the game engines system by design.

I'll give you one more example and it's common in TB RPGs and it's game-breaking… None targeting related.
You and your fellow mage B stumble upon a group of people in the center of the district. In the group, there is a dark-skinned elven girl let us call her Viconia. She is surrounded by men, who hate dark elves. They want to have their way with her and burn her as a witch.
She begs you for help, you agree to help.
Now you have a sidequest: Save the elf girl.
You ask them to let her go, they refuse and the fight starts and they try to kill the elf girl.
Same example two games you got the same skills in both games etc.

RTWp: You can cast a protective spell on her from the start to save her and buy the time you need to finish off the enemies before she dies.
You can stun them or heal her or whatever you got available. It's a hard fight but you do it… Sidequest completes you get a reward and a new companion, the elf girl.

TB: Here it totally depends on your luck if you save the girl making the quest artificially hard… IF you roll low initiative all the enemies will hit her first, you don't get to cast the protective spell or stuns heal and she dies before you even get your turn… You kill the enemies but you get no reward and you just lost a huge part of the game. A she is now unavailable as a companion. If you don't reload the game and effectively cheat.

And exactly this similar thing happens in Divinity original sin 2 when you first come to the island fort prison. And it happens in the majority of RPGs.
People forget how much freedom they give up when they play turn-based games… All to get a bit more simplified and less cluttered combat. Which can be totally avoided if you try hard in RTwp… It is all masked by the illusion of combat be it in Rtwp or TB.
Rtwp just has more freedom that is all. In my opinion, it is a better option.
Last edited by Dolby; February 18th, 2020 at 23:22.
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February 19th, 2020, 03:21
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
Yes, it's a specific case but it shows the nature of TB and its limits.
Where RTWp does not have those. Targeting is just one of the cases and you can plan, use skills, practice to overcome the problems you describe in RTWp. You can't do that in TB as its limits are hardcoded in the game engines system by design.

I'll give you one more example and it's common in TB RPGs and it's game-breaking… None targeting related.
You and your fellow mage B stumble upon a group of people in the center of the district. In the group, there is a dark-skinned elven girl let us call her Viconia. She is surrounded by men, who hate dark elves. They want to have their way with her and burn her as a witch.
She begs you for help, you agree to help.
Now you have a sidequest: Save the elf girl.
You ask them to let her go, they refuse and the fight starts and they try to kill the elf girl.
Same example two games you got the same skills in both games etc.

RTWp: You can cast a protective spell on her from the start to save her and buy the time you need to finish off the enemies before she dies.
You can stun them or heal her or whatever you got available. It's a hard fight but you do it… Sidequest completes you get a reward and a new companion, the elf girl.

TB: Here it totally depends on your luck if you save the girl making the quest artificially hard… IF you roll low initiative all the enemies will hit her first, you don't get to cast the protective spell or stuns heal and she dies before you even get your turn… You kill the enemies but you get no reward and you just lost a huge part of the game. A she is now unavailable as a companion. If you don't reload the game and effectively cheat.

And exactly this similar thing happens in Divinity original sin 2 when you first come to the island fort prison. And it happens in the majority of RPGs.
People forget how much freedom they give up when they play turn-based games… All to get a bit more simplified and less cluttered combat. Which can be totally avoided if you try hard in RTwp… It is all masked by the illusion of combat be it in Rtwp or TB.
Rtwp just has more freedom that is all. In my opinion, it is a better option.
You're assuming the rpg needs to have standard dnd rules.
Devs could easily make the woman have a protective self cast prior to combat. They could have a different system not based on initiative like banner saga. They could have many things to stop that situation from happening. You're assuming dnd is turn based here which it isn't.

On top of all that you're assuming the elf girl is helpless and can't defend herself.



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February 19th, 2020, 05:40
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
You're assuming the rpg needs to have standard dnd rules.
Devs could easily make the woman have a protective self cast prior to combat. They could have a different system not based on initiative like banner saga. They could have many things to stop that situation from happening. You're assuming dnd is turn based here which it isn't.

On top of all that you're assuming the elf girl is helpless and can't defend herself.
I'm not assuming anything. It's just an example. Showing the limitations of TB.
Of course, devs can do that. She can even be unkillable. Or she can be an epic fighter with higher lvl, better gear to own them all. But that is not the point of the example or the quest. If they do that, it's not you who saves her but the devs… And the quest becomes pointless and loses its added value.
What if she's not a companion Npc but just random. Devs don't give a shit if she lives or dies… Only you do. So now even with a Banner sagas alternating initiative which comes with its own problems btw, it can happen, she dies. You had no control over the events, as the guy with the heal, shield, stun, whatever didn't get his Go (round) in time to save her. The guy before him got a crit and she died. It brakes the game's illusion which is thin as it is due to other limitations of the game engines. There are lots of other examples like that.
Last edited by Dolby; February 19th, 2020 at 05:55.
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February 19th, 2020, 10:18
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
I'm not assuming anything. It's just an example. Showing the limitations of TB.
Of course, devs can do that. She can even be unkillable. Or she can be an epic fighter with higher lvl, better gear to own them all. But that is not the point of the example or the quest. If they do that, it's not you who saves her but the devs… And the quest becomes pointless and loses its added value.
What if she's not a companion Npc but just random. Devs don't give a shit if she lives or dies… Only you do. So now even with a Banner sagas alternating initiative which comes with its own problems btw, it can happen, she dies. You had no control over the events, as the guy with the heal, shield, stun, whatever didn't get his Go (round) in time to save her. The guy before him got a crit and she died. It brakes the game's illusion which is thin as it is due to other limitations of the game engines. There are lots of other examples like that.
Every gameplay mechanic and every system has its advantages and shortcomings. In my eyes you created some specific examples and you use them to make your point. But at the end it proves nothing. Fact is not created just by saying so.

Ending turn one step away from enemy in TB, unable to atack is annoying and is proof of TB system limitations (or even inferiority compared to RT)? It only proves lack of imagination and patience. In RT with turns, similar thing happens when you move character to enemy in middle of turn and then you have to wait 3-4 seconds to be able to atack.

I fully understand and have no problem to respect fact that you prefer RT or RTwP system more. And I get you have your reasons for that. But none of those reasons are factual and do not prove inferiority of TB system.

I, personally, can enjoy both systems. It more matters to me how well its executed and if ruleset behind it is solid.
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February 19th, 2020, 10:26
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
I'm not assuming anything. It's just an example. Showing the limitations of TB.
Of course, devs can do that. She can even be unkillable. Or she can be an epic fighter with higher lvl, better gear to own them all. But that is not the point of the example or the quest. If they do that, it's not you who saves her but the devs… And the quest becomes pointless and loses its added value.
What if she's not a companion Npc but just random. Devs don't give a shit if she lives or dies… Only you do. So now even with a Banner sagas alternating initiative which comes with its own problems btw, it can happen, she dies. You had no control over the events, as the guy with the heal, shield, stun, whatever didn't get his Go (round) in time to save her. The guy before him got a crit and she died. It brakes the game's illusion which is thin as it is due to other limitations of the game engines. There are lots of other examples like that.
Isn't that the point though?

The girl could die, or she can live. If you always save her then the game is too much of the same.

If the devs did things well then the pcs initiative is likely to be a bit higher than the enemies at that point in the game and the likelihood of every member of your party rolling lower than the enemy is low.

The devs need to ensure the aggro system also works well. All you're saying has nothing to do with Tb or rtwp. In rtwp the enemy could attack the girl faster than your protective spell casts and she does too. It's about having a well implemented system rather than the system itself…

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February 19th, 2020, 11:00
I'll chime in and agree with Pladio, many of the points Dolby raises are legit, but they're problems with encounter design and mechanics, not necessarily with a turn based system.

That's also my take on Turn Based vs. RtwP, either system can work great or be horrible or everything in between, it's much more a matter about how it's implemented than what system is used.

If I would list my top 10 games the distribution between the two would probably be pretty even with a slight advantage towards turn based, mainly because it's a system more commonly used. Apart from The infinity games, PoE, NWN and PF:KM I can't really think of many RPG's that have used RTwP and done it well? I could probably list 5-10 more games with RTwP that I've played but didn't enjoy as much, but that's about it.
Last edited by TomRon; February 19th, 2020 at 19:25.
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February 19th, 2020, 11:24
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
I'll chime in and agree with Pladio, many of the points Dolby raises are legit, but they're problems witn encounter design and mechanics, not necessarily with a turn based system.

That's also my take on Turn Based vs. RtwP, either system can work great or be horrible or everything in between, it's much more a matter about how it's implemented than what system is used.

If I would list my top 10 games the distribution between the two would probably be pretty even with a slight advantage towards turn based, mainly because it's a system more commonly used. Apart from The infinity games, PoE, NWN and PF:KM I can't really think of many RPG's that have used RTwP and done it well? I could probably list 5-10 more games with RTwP that I've played but didn't enjoy as much, but that's about it.
I played PoE and PoE2 in RTwP and while both games are flawed, I didnt have serious issues towards the choice of combat system. Untill I started my TB mode gameplay of PoE2.

Which made combat so much more enjoyable for me. Suddenly I had much higher sense of control over the details of each encounter. I started to use skills I didnt use before to such extent it had influence on character building.

Since then I think that game system and mechanics were not in harmony with choice and execution of primary combat system (RTwP). I dont really think it makes RtWP system better or worse, rather then that its a matter of overall execution.
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February 19th, 2020, 12:46
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
I'm not assuming anything. It's just an example. Showing the limitations of TB.
Of course, devs can do that. She can even be unkillable. Or she can be an epic fighter with higher lvl, better gear to own them all. But that is not the point of the example or the quest. If they do that, it's not you who saves her but the devs… And the quest becomes pointless and loses its added value.
You're going from one extreme to the other. Couldn't the encountered be balanced so to not be impossible but also not be impossible to lose. Balance is an important part of game design. If either of the things you mention happen I would say the game is not balanced correctly.
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February 19th, 2020, 13:41
Originally Posted by Andrew23 View Post
Every gameplay mechanic and every system has its advantages and shortcomings. In my eyes you created some specific examples and you use them to make your point. But at the end it proves nothing. Fact is not created just by saying so.
I gave you examples that can be recreated or tested in any game engine with any TB system. The only way a statement becomes fact is when you can verify it see it with your own eyes, test it.
If you go look at gameplay on YouTube Of Divinity original sin 2 or you got the game yourself. I think people rate it up there with other good games and it's popular that's why I picked it.
You can see this example of the girl getting killed all the time in the first 5 minutes of the prison. You can test it on your own. The same as other specific cases, why? Because it based on the same limitations. The only way to fix it is by devs doing even more artificial things and brake the immersion and the illusion and affect other things.
You or I can add a lot of other examples to test them but we will get the same results.
Originally Posted by Andrew23 View Post
Ending turn one step away from enemy in TB, unable to atack is annoying and is proof of TB system limitations (or even inferiority compared to RT)? It only proves lack of imagination and patience. In RT with turns, similar thing happens when you move character to enemy in middle of turn and then you have to wait 3-4 seconds to be able to atack.
I'm not saying Rtwp is perfect if it was, we wouldn't have other systems. I think that's clear to anyone, no? I'm just saying TB is more limiting, artificial, it limits the freedom of RTwp. This feature in the quote let us call it *movement* is more limiting and more artificial. It takes longer it's less accurate and so on. Is it better? Well, it can be and if you are a fan of TB games it definitely is better then RTwp.
Originally Posted by Andrew23 View Post
I fully understand and have no problem to respect the fact that you prefer RT or RTwP system more. And I get you have your reasons for that. But none of those reasons are factual and do not prove inferiority of TB system.
Yes, they do, go test them and you will see. Make your self a project pick two games you like, one RTwp and other TB try the same thing in both games and see what happens…The Difference is huge as are the limitations. Don't forget you're not testing which one you like more! People confuse those things.
Originally Posted by Andrew23 View Post
I, personally, can enjoy both systems. It more matters to me how well its executed and if ruleset behind it is solid.
I can respect that. I can enjoy both… One could say I prefer a brunette with blue eyes over a blond with blue eyes. I could enjoy the blond or both but the brunette would kill me.
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February 19th, 2020, 13:51
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
Yes, they do, go test them and you will see. Make your self a project pick two games you like, one RTwp and other TB try the same thing in both games and see what happens…The Difference is huge as are the limitations. Dont forget you not testing which one you like more! People confuse those things.
Coincidentally, I am working on such project for years already. And my results show otherwise… :-)
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February 19th, 2020, 14:06
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Isn't that the point though?

The girl could die, or she can live. If you always save her then the game is too much of the same.

If the devs did things well then the pcs initiative is likely to be a bit higher than the enemies at that point in the game and the likelihood of every member of your party rolling lower than the enemy is low.

The devs need to ensure the aggro system also works well. All you're saying has nothing to do with Tb or rtwp. In rtwp the enemy could attack the girl faster than your protective spell casts and she does too. It's about having a well implemented system rather than the system itself…

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The problem is that you don't have control over what happens. It doesn't matter if she dies or lives. It matters why she died or didn't or one could say how… if you had an option a chance, to save her.
Yes in Rtwp that can happen but you can still try to save her you always get a chance no matter what RTwp system you play. In TB that's not the case.
anyway, I'm just glad they are doing both systems…))
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February 19th, 2020, 14:14
Originally Posted by Andrew23 View Post
Coincidentally, I am working on such project for years already. And my results show otherwise… :-)
Hand over, give the details! I'm interested! What results? Why all the secrecy!!! We are all fellow fans of CRPGs.
Please share why you think TB is better! I want to know.)
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February 19th, 2020, 15:06
This has been a great discussion! Lot of things I never considered on both sides.

For me, however, it is really simple why I prefer RTwP - time commitment. TB is just so slow. I didn't mind it all in Tides of Numeria as there wasn't a lot of combat. I also don't mind it much in a bloober like Opernecia (sp?)

But DDOS2 … near the end I was slogging through with pure grit and determination, desperate to finish the game before I died of old age. Then screw up, which you may not notice for a while, or die at the end, and another hour long battle to repeat.

I know the biggest sour tasted was near the very end, when I hadn't saved, and had spent over 4 hours slogging through one hard fight after another .. then my game crashed. Even though I was on the very end (about 97% done) I uninstalled the game and have never gone back.

TB does have some nice control but for me it feels a bit unrealistic and artificial (yea I know any game is unrealistic and artificial) because of the way time freezes. While sometimes I would like to have more control, as I fully admit RTwP can be hectic at times, I simply prefer the more natural flow of RTwP. I think some games also let you adjust the speed a lot, which combined with pause, helps a lot.

But in the end, for me, it really boils down to time. I am not a major combat fan these days like I was in the past - and also enjoyed TB a lot back in those days. I prefer faster battles and just don't want to spend my two hours of gaming some night getting through a handful of fights. I want to do things - explore, have some battles, do quests, etc.

I can see TB being nice for a boss fight - as those are meant to be more intense and strategic.

Regardless I am with @purpleblob in much preferring RTwP, especially for this game.

That being said I see some good points on both sides in this thread.
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February 19th, 2020, 15:19
Originally Posted by Dolby View Post
The problem is that you don't have control over what happens. It doesn't matter if she dies or lives. It matters why she died or didn't or one could say how… if you had an option a chance, to save her.
Yes in Rtwp that can happen but you can still try to save her you always get a chance no matter what RTwp system you play. In TB that's not the case.
anyway, I'm just glad they are doing both systems…))
Again, that's just bad game design. It is a game designers job to make sure such things don't happen, just like it's programmer's job to implement good pathfinding in the RTwP game so your party member doesn't move past all the enemies and get hit with attacks of opportunity by all of them when a more sane route is available (something that had happened to me a lot in older games like BG and NWN). Both systems have their limitations, but both have strengths, too.
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February 19th, 2020, 20:53
I personally enjoy both RTWP and TB.

In re to these discussions on spell-casting, I have to admit that RTWP did alter the way I played PF:KM with magic-using characters. I tended rely on buff spells. I think it had more to do with laziness than anything else; it was just easier. I also found them to generally be more effective than AoE spells anyway.

I'm glad that PF:WotR will implement both systems. I'm guessing I will stick to RTWP for most battles and go to TB with the harder battles where I want to micro-manage more.
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February 20th, 2020, 00:26
Originally Posted by clemford View Post
I personally enjoy both RTWP and TB.

In re to these discussions on spell-casting, I have to admit that RTWP did alter the way I played PF:KM with magic-using characters. I tended rely on buff spells. I think it had more to do with laziness than anything else; it was just easier. I also found them to generally be more effective than AoE spells anyway.
Very much so, the damage dealt by an AoE spell is nothing compared to a buff or direct damage spell of the same level. I only use Fireballs to sometimes pull mobs into attacking me in a more advantageous position. Sure it's FUN to throw them mid combat as well, but not very effective.
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February 20th, 2020, 14:51
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
Reading forums like this one or Steam or Codex forums even more so one might get the impression that isn't the case, but that's because (I think) the people who have extremely strong feelings towards one combat system will be much more likely to post their praise and/or rage. Most of us are fine either way and will just roll our eyes when the discussion over which system is superior gets heated.
This site is recorded history. It archives. Written many times already.

One consequence is that words, propositions might be checked over the course of time.

Now one example that might warm a bit memory (because it is known): the documentation of the push over PoE to make it a UgoIgo product. Over various updates, changes were examined to assess how they would bring closer to the day of UgoIgo. Various remarks were made like RTwP requires a greater skillset than UgoIgo etc to explain the push, that RTwP products have no audience… Stuff like that.

The conclusion happened with an introduction of a UgoIgo mode in PoE2.

Getting an impression of this or that about players' preferences, their numbers… is irrelevant.

What matters is the outcome: the addition of a UgoIgo mode to RTwP products.
Utter nonsense. There are plenty of people who enjoy both, I suspect a lot more people do than people who refuse to play one over or the other. I'm pretty sure there are more people who own both RTwP products and turn based (Ugoigo) products than there are people who exclusively buy either. Note that unlike you I don't claim my opinion is a fact, so I'll settle for that.
Once again, opinions might or might not be factually based.

Are held as facts the following: a UgoIgo mode was added to PoE2, a UgoIgo mode is going to be added to this vid product.
And indeed this is stated as facts. Now people can form different opinions, a UgoIgo mode was never added to PoE2, there is no plan to add such a mode to this vid product. Maybe all this never happened.

Now back to the assumption that players would enjoy both, put them on equivalent grounds.

Very correct when considering that out of their blind passion, players demand the same when it comes to UgoIgo products, a RTwP mode must be added. There is obviously a list of products that fits the bill, players petition, rage, bang on the door of UgoIgo products so a RTwP mode is added.

It certainly is not like a hierarchy has been established between RTwP and UgoIgo products, that RTwP products must accomodate UgoIgo, must make room for UgoIgo whereas the reverse is incorrect, UgoIgo products must not make room for a RTwP mode.

RTwP products must be inclusive for UgoIgo players. UgoIgo products must not be inclusive for RTwP players.

This never happened of course. Only people who are reported to claim their opinions as facts could make such an unbased observation.

If that did happen and that is a big if, the american system designates the usual suspects. Time for an unPC moment.

RtwP products require a larger skillset than UgoIgo. It requires a different approach, a different culture. All cultures are not equal.

And UgoIgo players, when they come to RTwP products, they do not want to learn the RTwP ways, they do not want to learn how to be a RTwP gamer. They want to stick to their UgoIgo ways.
They do not want to assimilate.

By the american system, this should ring a bell.

UnPC moment: muslims, they want to enforce their sharia UgoIgo on everyone else. Women, they consider themselves equal to men and consider RTwP as a bastion for patriarchy. Blacks, they are intellectually inferior and RTwP requires more intellectual skills than UgoIgo, UgoIgo is their affirmative action program.

Three categories of usual suspects as designated by the american system.

The PC brigade or simple minded people by the way will come, claiming that in fact, considering the demographics of customers, those who are banging to the gates, demanding to be included, are white men (the absolute evil)
They are the ones who do not want to assimilate, who are used to being the center of everything and feel insecure as soon as they are left aside.
They are the ones who do not want to assimilate.

As a result of it, simple minded people will also rightly be categorized as people posturing their opinions as facts.

Once again, none of this ever happened. There is no hierarchy between UgoIgo and RTwP. If there were one, people behind it would be known.
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