Age of Decadence - Review @ GameBanshee

As both a Praetor and an Assassin I got to kill many people *and* see a lot of the lore and hidden locations.

Not true. There is only one combat in the game designed for you to fail, even with the options available to a pure combat character. In that one you're not outnumbered.

OK. Thanks, good to know. I am not that far down the story-line. I still have to try both praetor and assassin past the 1st city.

The unwinnable fight i was referring to is the one at the very beginning 2 vs 1 connected to dead merchant's goods delivery.

I play mercenary and dumped everything into weapon and block. And crafting to get good armor. During arena fights in second city I got a side-quest and had to deal with 7 riders who eventually grinded me to death with crits. I presume that you are supposed to talk them into leaving using impersonate or you are out of luck (if you want to be on the "good" side).

In any case, I think people after trying the demo will know if they want to continue with that kind of experience.
 
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I can't take too seriously a review that heralds The Banner Saga and Shadowrun Returns as a glorious return to old-school RPGs. Some of these guys have a very strange view of the past.
 
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OK. Thanks, good to know. I am not that far down the story-line. I still have to try both praetor and assassin past the 1st city.

The unwinnable fight i was referring to is the one at the very beginning 2 vs 1 connected to dead merchant's goods delivery.

I play mercenary and dumped everything into weapon and block. And crafting to get good armor. During arena fights in second city I got a side-quest and had to deal with 7 riders who eventually grinded me to death with crits. I presume that you are supposed to talk them into leaving using impersonate or you are out of luck (if you want to be on the "good" side).

In any case, I think people after trying the demo will know if they want to continue with that kind of experience.

No fights are unwinnable, some of them are really tough though. Don't expect something like a EA or CDProjekt game were everything is super easy.
 
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OK. Thanks, good to know. I am not that far down the story-line. I still have to try both praetor and assassin past the 1st city.



The unwinnable fight i was referring to is the one at the very beginning 2 vs 1 connected to dead merchant's goods delivery.



I play mercenary and dumped everything into weapon and block. And crafting to get good armor. During arena fights in second city I got a side-quest and had to deal with 7 riders who eventually grinded me to death with crits. I presume that you are supposed to talk them into leaving using impersonate or you are out of luck (if you want to be on the "good" side).



In any case, I think people after trying the demo will know if they want to continue with that kind of experience.


Are you talking about kemnebi's quest ?
 
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No fights are unwinnable, some of them are really though though. Don't expect something like a EA or CDProjekt game were everything is super easy.


I believe there is only one fight in the game that is meant to be almost unwinnable. However, it is possible to win the battle.
 
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my suggestion for game design, is to make the game winnable through any stats, no matter how low. but the rewards to scale with their level
of course, there needs to be a minimum stat check for the option to appear all together.
or maybe not, maybe the options are simply restricted to the class. this way the quests dont get meshed up together and lose congruity.
and im never one to follow a specific path. oh.. i picked an assasin, i must assassinate ... right
 
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my suggestion for game design, is to make the game winnable through any stats, no matter how low. but the rewards to scale with their level
of course, there needs to be a minimum stat check for the option to appear all together.
or maybe not, maybe the options are simply restricted to the class. this way the quests dont get meshed up together and lose congruity.
and im never one to follow a specific path. oh.. i picked an assasin, i must assassinate … right

That wouldn't make sense at all.

Why would you be ale to win with any stats. What's the point of the game then ? Might as well remove the stats then.
 
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my suggestion for game design, is to make the game winnable through any stats, no matter how low. but the rewards to scale with their level
You're simply talking about a different game altogether. There are a hundred other games where what you're asking for applies. Don't ask for it from AoD.
 
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The unwinnable fight i was referring to is the one at the very beginning 2 vs 1 connected to dead merchant's goods delivery.
Nah, you can beat them. Obviously, if the Assassin thrashed you in the merchant's room you would start at a disadvantage. If not, it's all about strategy.

You're getting too stressed out in the details. Play through the game once as a fighter, avoid the really tough fights and learn a few things. (Spear is probably the easiest weapon to take, if you know which stats to pump and how to use it) If that takes too long (and it is a learning process, not going to lie), read up on the official forums.
 
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Nah, you can beat them. Obviously, if the Assassin thrashed you in the merchant's room you would start at a disadvantage. If not, it's all about strategy.

You're getting too stressed out in the details. Play through the game once as a fighter, avoid the really tough fights and learn a few things. (Spear is probably the easiest weapon to take, if you know which stats to pump and how to use it) If that takes too long (and it is a learning process, not going to lie), read up on the official forums.

The mercenary fight at the start is very winnable, especially for a combat-oriented character.

What's hard is to save Vardanis, because they both try and kill him. However, even that is possible.
 
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The mercenary fight at the start is very winnable, especially for a combat-oriented character.

What's hard is to save Vardanis, because they both try and kill him. However, even that is possible.

Yeah, I've only been able to save Vardanis by what seems to be dumb luck (i.e., if he dodges a lot and I can get one of the thugs to attack me). It's pretty frustrating but I guess it should be… However, if I were the thugs I would worry about taking out the big mercenary with a huge battleaxe before the old man in robes armed with a little dagger.
 
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Well, you get 250 coins for letting him die. What do you get for saving him?
 
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Well, you get 250 coins for letting him die. What do you get for saving him?

I forget the exact amount but if you have enough Streetwise you can convince him to give you a bonus... Not sure if there's any consequences later on as I haven't played far with my Mercenary yet. Of course, if he doesn't die you won't have the option to return to Cado's Tavern and work for the Forty Thieves guild.
 
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Yeah, I've only been able to save Vardanis by what seems to be dumb luck (i.e., if he dodges a lot and I can get one of the thugs to attack me). It's pretty frustrating but I guess it should be… However, if I were the thugs I would worry about taking out the big mercenary with a huge battleaxe before the old man in robes armed with a little dagger.

Best way is to stand in front of one and then feint the other one. It seems to reset to you then. Note that they can kill you of course :D
Also, use nets to ensure they can't hit Vardanis.

Well, you get 250 coins for letting him die. What do you get for saving him?

I forgot. But you can also tell Vardanis to pay you for saving his life. forgot how much that was and what skills you need. If you really want to know, then tell me and I'll check...

I forget the exact amount but if you have enough Streetwise you can convince him to give you a bonus… Not sure if there's any consequences later on as I haven't played far with my Mercenary yet. Of course, if he doesn't die you won't have the option to return to Cado's Tavern and work for the Forty Thieves guild.

I didn't notice any consequences, but maybe I just missed it. I missed a lot of things in this game.
 
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You're simply talking about a different game altogether. There are a hundred other games where what you're asking for applies. Don't ask for it from AoD.

what who where?

i think ur are blowing things way out of proportion, the change is not that big ) my Ne Ti sees it
 
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what who where?

i think ur are blowing things way out of proportion, the change is not that big ) my Ne Ti sees it

I think the confusion about old-school gaming philosophy here is a very slight but very important difference which all revolves around the concept of "different ways to solve the same encounter".

The old party-based RPGs fulfilled this remit by having each character/class perform different actions and by each character/class having different skills, so each encounter could be approached differently but still allow progression as long as you could figure out a way to do it. This could be via talking with, say, a bard-like, fighting, intimidation, sneaking, etc, and the scenario might even have different outcomes depending on if you talked with a Paladin or evil Wizard or dumb Barbarian etc. But the general idea was to permit progression via different routes.

With Age of Decadence it seems the basic premise is the same but because it's single character rather than party a lot of the encounters end in brick walls for the wrong character/class with the wrong skills because there isn't lots of ways to solve each encounter, but, rather, lots of different encounters which require specific characters/skills in order to progress, making the general idea to restrict progression via different routes.

It's quite difficult to put into words, it's such a fine line, but it's definitely a significant difference. It's enough of a difference for me to class AoD as more of a rogue-like than cRPG. A lot of RPG fans also love rogue-likes, so for these people, it's obvious to see why they like it, but for those who don't particularly like rogue-likes they most likely see the game as you do, a question of not understanding why progression has to be so dead-endish.

Again, the fine line between an old RPG which might require you to start again and try a different party because you've built all your characters wrong and a game where building your characters wrong is part of the intended design and you're expected to restart lots and lots of times.

I agree that "different ways to solve the same encounter" doesn't have to be either popamole easy or masochistically meta-gamey to still be a solid "hardcore old-school" gaming experience and I find it odd that people would try to polarize the preferred medium out of the debate. And the preferred medium is most definitely the least represented category, because it's actually the hardest to pull of well.
 
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It's enough of a difference for me to class AoD as more of a rogue-like than cRPG. .
With all due respect, I don't think this is the case at all.

Age of Decadence doesn't have the degree of random generation or combat-centric focus of a rogue-alike. There are far more class-options with their own individual approaches to problem solving, including non-combat approaches.

The scenarios are detailed and handcrafted (in a quasi choose-your own adventure fashion) and you're often encouraged to avoid violence and have multiple solutions to problems, should your character be skilled enough. Indeed, I think it is a game that is much more rooted in the Troika traditions of character and skill based role-playing with very heavy choices and consequences.

To describe it as a rogue-like is a misnomer and doesn't begin to cover the kinds of choices and reactivity that is on offer to the player in this game.

Also, for players struggling with the sensation of hitting a wall progression wise, I've found it pays to utilize the reasonable auto-save and quick-save options that the game offers. So far for me at least, you can easily swap back and forward if a consequence is too difficult to deal with from a choice one has made, to then do something else.

A good example of this is my assassin's initial attempt at the third boatmen mission.
My character was under-skilled (in sneak) and paid the penalty in failure within the choice nodes I'd made. Thus, I simply went back to a previous save and went elsewhere to progress more in other quests and came back and had success. Admittedly I'm not far into the game, so I don't know how flexible this system will remain as it progresses.

I'm enjoying it a good deal so far - I like having to re-evaluate tactical options upon failure and the ability to experiment when combat does happen.
 
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A good example of this is my assassin's initial attempt at the third boatmen mission. My character was under-skilled (in sneak) and paid the penalty in failure within the choice nodes I'd made. Thus, I simply went back to a previous save and went elsewhere to progress more in other quests and came back and had success. Admittedly I'm not far into the game, so I don't know how flexible this system will remain as it progresses.

I'm enjoying it a good deal so far - I like having to re-evaluate tactical options upon failure and the ability to experiment when combat does happen.

With all due respect, points in a skill are not tactical options. the use of both words are incorrect for the situation, it is neither tactical nor do you have options, it's just numbers in exactly the right place or it's a wall.

Maybe these two bits of info were badly framed and you meant you liked the stat walling for the story but liked the various options for the combat aspect, which is a different topic as combat will always have variety, even if it's just a choice between a crossbow or a sword.

I understand bad wording, I also didn't make myself fully clear about what I meant by rogue-like when I said more rogue-like. What I meant by that wasn't the random aspect of rogue-likes, but the design intention to have a relatively short game where the design intention is also for you to start new characters over and over in order to experience something new, as oppose to a traditional cRPG which is about having a large epic adventure which you can experience in accordance with the playstyle of your chosen characters which leaves enough variety for a slightly different experience the next time you fire it up or, if you never replay games even once, simply leaves you with the impression that your choices made a difference or suited your characters while you played it.

For example, some examples of choices and consequences in a traditional cRPG:

You encounter an NPC...

1) Talk to them, you get positive responses, possibly a quest or possibly an item or just cool lore or perhaps end a quest-line etc etc etc.
2) Talk to them, you get negative responses and they just go silent.
3) Talk to them, you enrage them, a fight ensues.
4) Ignore them and/or all the undesigned possibilities that the devs didn't plan for.

This offers a huge array of choices which matter to the player and can involve skill checks but it's never going to be a wall to progression. The only wall to progression would be if you failed the combat if you chose the combat path or a failure to amass enough XP or loot to progress in later combat because you made too many NPCs go silent on you or you ignored too many of them.

The story aspect of a cRPG, IMO, shouldn't be a fail-state. Only the combat should be a fail-state. If you make the story give fail-states then you end up with scenarios like:

NPC tells you to go into a room and wait for him, to which you go in and get skewered by a trap which instantly kills you, with zero avoidability - because you either didn't have enough skill-check in perception or because the developer is just a bit of a dick and wanted to appeal to people who like dick-gameplay.

In a Choose Your Own Adventure book, this would be just a matter of going back to the last page you were at. It takes a few seconds and doesn't even feel dicky, it feels almost natural, but in a computer game it could take anything between 5 minutes and a few hours to go back to a previous point in the story. Which then encourages constant saving over multiple save states, so simply saving the game becomes a 'tactic'.

In a traditional cRPG, having to reload a two hour old save because you had a total party wipe in combat doesn't feel that bad as a player, because you've failed at something you consider fair to fail at, like being caught by a ghost in Pacman. But reloading a two hour old save because you lack a perception skill or because the game glitches or because you feel the dev is being a dick produces a different emotion, one more likely to rage-quit, because it just doesn't feel 'natural'. Going back two-hours in a traditional cRPG just gives you greater enthusiasm to get back to the important fight again (which wont take two hours because this time you know what's coming and rush there). Rushing back to a skill check or dialogue option just doesn't have that same emotional impetus.

Having content gated by skill checks is not much different to having content gated by level-of-monster, such as games like Dragon Age, but at least with level-of-monster gating you can at least try with various unexpected options and tactics, with story-based gating you have no additional options or choices.
 
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Traditional RPGs are like standard PnP experience or lackblogger has been saying. You progress the story, DM changes the world around based on player option so the story can continue. If combat happens and players die tough luck.

AoD is a very non standard PnP experience where players gather, none of them have required diplomacy +10 when speaking with a noble (no matter what they actually say) and they get killed when exiting by his guards. Everyone goes home. DM tells them they can meet next week and try again.

Now look at those players as RPG community. How many will appear next week for another try?
 
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lackblogger and Archangel - nicely put, both of you. Just like Gamebanshee's reviewer I have also tried to like this game but just couldn't. While for many players here it doesn't seem to be a problem, I just don't fancy suffering whims of a neurotic DM…
 
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