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March 16th, 2019, 17:35
I'll put my logic in simple sentences not rant or attack mode for dummies.

I don't mind Epic Exclusives if announced from day one. I despise scummy developers/publishers who use switch tactics. So not a Steam fanboy or Epic hater.
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March 16th, 2019, 17:49
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
A feature is something within the game itself. Being on a certain platform is not a feature.

I understand the anger though even if I feel it's a little overblown. I also agree that backers should be exempt from the exclusivity agreement. At least they're getting free DLC though.
Yes, probably overblown, but I do understand some of the reasoning.
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March 16th, 2019, 18:07
Originally Posted by Silver View Post
What do you need to do to sign up for an Epic Games Store account anyways.

Seems like I could use a free gmail to sign up. Download the game and the DLC when it arrives and archive it (its DRM free). Then I could disable my Epic Games Store account once all crucial patches have been delivered and play it at my leisure. Then I close my Epic Games Store account and get the GOG version as promised. A temporary throw away email will not keep me up at night.

Julian has worked out how to use this EGS money to his advantage to get the game to where he wants it. None of the Phoenix Point customers have to stay with Epic Games Store if they don't want and I'm presuming no credit card information has to be provided upon signing up. Smart guy.
It's not working like that at all:
- During one year or two you'll have to launch Epic to check updates, free DLC, extensions.
- You'll never get a Steam/Gog key so you'll continue need the launcher to reinstall the game or check for some updates.
- Epic will brag about having more users including me, despite I never ever wanted support them in any way. Not buy any other game with never change that.
- Dev forum is an absurd UI crap, I hope the game isn't that bad, so you'll be forced use the Epic forum to get in touch with most other players.
- The core of the problem is they forced my decision or force me wait one more year and broke an act of faith and hope with pledging.

Again, I'm not against the deal even if I don't like that at all, and no game will ever make me use the Epic store, well except very few if they are eternal exclusivity. But good luck on that, none achieved it but Bioware, well Rip Bioware to be exact.

Again too I'm 100% in favor of a serious concurrent to Steam that isn't Gog, but no way Epic.

EDIT: If I knew the dev was close to bankrupt and was needing Epic money to properly finish the game, i could be more indulgent, and admit I could wait one more year for that even if it means I'll skip the release year of the game. All in all I would be ok for the trade but not if it's about pure financial future solidity of the dev, they can bankrupt past the game, I don't care.
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March 16th, 2019, 18:15
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
A feature is something within the game itself. Being on a certain platform is not a feature.

I understand the anger though even if I feel it's a little overblown. I also agree that backers should be exempt from the exclusivity agreement. At least they're getting free DLC though.
Game? It's about a Fig campaign and pledging.

I quote that it can be repeated again and again and some refuse read it and persist answer like if it's a game and a buy, but NO.
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March 16th, 2019, 18:54
Originally Posted by ChatMiauleur View Post
Steam loyalist? I would have been happy with a GOG key. I am more concerned personally by the multiplication of clients you need to install to play.
Then the course of action is to use Steam, not GOG. 1 by 1 is 1. Using anything but the dominant solution favours the multiplication of clients.
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March 16th, 2019, 19:03
Originally Posted by ChatMiauleur View Post
Nah.

My Steam EU Privacy agreement:

Chapter 6. Your Rights and Control Mechanisms

The data protection laws of the European Economic Area and other territories grant their citizens certain rights in relation to their Personal Data.
As a resident of the European Economic Area you have the following rights in relation to your Personal Data:
(I have removed the paragraphs of texts below the chapter titles)

6.1 Right of Access.
6.2 Right to Rectification.
6.3. Right to Erasure.
6.4 Right to Object.
When our processing of your Personal Data is based on legitimate interests according to Article 6(1)(f) of the GDPR / section 2.c) of this Privacy Policy, you have the right to object to this processing. If you object we will no longer process your Personal Data unless there are compelling and prevailing legitimate grounds for the processing as described in Article 21 of the GDPR; in particular if the data is necessary for the establishment, exercise or defense of legal claims.

You also have the right to lodge a complaint at a supervisory authority.


Also Steam provides a timeframe for the data they store, they explicetely list the Companies/persons who could have access to that data (including other players for example).
Steam seems to say somewhere else also than they extended the rights and privileges of GDPR to everyone in fact. Not sure about that.
So it looks totally fine related to the EU GDPR

Epic on the other hand did not give details on who else can access the data they store, neither for how much time they keep it. They also do not provide information on which country they store the data and in all probability that data is stored in what EU considers as very unsafe Data countries like China, Russia or USA.

They do not inform on what rights you have (GDPR mandatory) or how to contact them to ask for those rights.
The EU law had one effect: removing the grey areas about consent. Before, people could tell they never gave their consent for any bit of information that was gathered.
It is no longer the case due to the EU law. Every bit of information collected is consented.

Personal data are data attached to a person. Usually, information is farmed by IP. IP is attached to a location that is attached to an account that is attached to a person.

Personal data collection are non essential and hard to achieve without people surrending them. It is possible to infer from IP data collected what person did what and when.

Nevertheless, it is not the point of data collection. Steam has little to no interest to personal data collection, a lot more to IP attached data collection.
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March 16th, 2019, 19:07
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
It's not working like that at all:
- During one year or two you'll have to launch Epic to check updates, free DLC, extensions.
- You'll never get a Steam/Gog key so you'll continue need the launcher to reinstall the game or check for some updates.
Non sense. When opting for a client, you usually do not receive a key for another client. Going for GOG means no Steam key.

Customers are such bound to a client to update their product and not for one year.

Players with no interest in the product better move.
Players with little interest in the product better wait for Steam release for flash sales, bulk sales etc
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March 16th, 2019, 20:43
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
The EU law had one effect: removing the grey areas about consent. Before, people could tell they never gave their consent for any bit of information that was gathered.
It is no longer the case due to the EU law. Every bit of information collected is consented.

Personal data are data attached to a person. Usually, information is farmed by IP. IP is attached to a location that is attached to an account that is attached to a person.

Personal data collection are non essential and hard to achieve without people surrending them. It is possible to infer from IP data collected what person did what and when.

Nevertheless, it is not the point of data collection. Steam has little to no interest to personal data collection, a lot more to IP attached data collection.
You have really no idea of what you are talking about, right? Steam, GOG, or Epic are no Youtube , Facebook or whatever you use as a recreation tool lately.

They have with you a personal service contract, you are not an user, you are a customer. They have information about you, where you live, what you play, how you pay, what category of games you buy …
No bullshit data, real data because if you put fake data your contract is essentially void and you lose any kind of right you think you have on your games.
Sure you consent to give your data, you are paying for a service which requires personal data: Payment (which is an explicit consent), your full and complete identity, your real address. They have to comply with your local laws for the contract terms, the financial, the kind of content which is permissible for you.

You are a customer, not an user, if you fake those data they can use this to void the contract and you could potentially be sued.

GDPR is not here to prevent you giving that data or for them to take it. This data is necessary for this kind of service and commercial contract. GDPR is here to make sure you, as a person, keep a control on it and you know what they do with it if you wish so.

Those guys have the wet dream kind of data Google and Facebook are trying to farm for years on top of the data they farm by the usage of their services. FB will launch soon a eMoney to farm your bank account data.

To say than they prefer IP linked data instead of personal data is so wrong..
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March 16th, 2019, 21:15
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
It's not working like that at all:
- During one year or two you'll have to launch Epic to check updates, free DLC, extensions.
- You'll never get a Steam/Gog key so you'll continue need the launcher to reinstall the game or check for some updates.
- Epic will brag about having more users including me, despite I never ever wanted support them in any way. Not buy any other game with never change that.
- Dev forum is an absurd UI crap, I hope the game isn't that bad, so you'll be forced use the Epic forum to get in touch with most other players.
- The core of the problem is they forced my decision or force me wait one more year and broke an act of faith and hope with pledging.

Again, I'm not against the deal even if I don't like that at all, and no game will ever make me use the Epic store, well except very few if they are eternal exclusivity. But good luck on that, none achieved it but Bioware, well Rip Bioware to be exact.

Again too I'm 100% in favor of a serious concurrent to Steam that isn't Gog, but no way Epic.

EDIT: If I knew the dev was close to bankrupt and was needing Epic money to properly finish the game, i could be more indulgent, and admit I could wait one more year for that even if it means I'll skip the release year of the game. All in all I would be ok for the trade but not if it's about pure financial future solidity of the dev, they can bankrupt past the game, I don't care.
-I'm a backer so a Steam or GOG key has been promised after the one year exclusivity period has expired. This is what I'm referring too.
-Epic can brag about user numbers if it likes. I will only be a temporary user.
-There is Phoenix Point discord and Snapshot forums for game feedback. Reddit too if I'm desperate. And of course this place will have some feedback.
-I agree they broke an act of faith. If Snapshot had gone to the backers we would of said no I think so it seems like a lump it or leave it situation. I plan to make the best of it and ultimately I want the game to be as good as it can be so I'll choose forgiveness. I understand why Julian did it - he wants to make his dream game and felt backers would ultimately want that too. To some degree he is right.
-At the end of the day Epic Games Store won't benefit from this but PP will and it won't effect my ability to play the game (DRM free) +now my privacy concerns look set to be resolved.
-I won't use EGS bar installing the game + dlc + patches.
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March 16th, 2019, 21:54
Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
I think it's a disproportionate concern. If you're using Windows, or most pieces of proprietary software, there's some data collection and telemetry going on. I think to single out the Epic client as a possible "virus" is not a very balanced way to look at it. The explanation given seems reasonable to me - the scraping of friend data is there because importing friend lists is an optional feature. They agree that it shouldn't make a copy of the friend data until the import option is selected, but that this data is not sent to their servers.

Bear in mind that Steam's anti-cheat system scans your entire memory contents (massive security and privacy risk) and also your DNS lookups (to see which sites you're accessing) to make sure you're not up to anything. Their line on this is not to worry because they're not interested in the porn you're watching, but they don't discuss the system too much, so as not to help cheats circumvent it. Hmm…

I'm not saying they're doing anything nefarious either, but if we're going to start fussing about intrusive software, the list of concerns is a long one. (Which, BTW, is why I only run Windows and its software on my gaming PC.)
Be careful, Ripper. We're not used to seeing someone speak rationally about Steam and game clients in general here. You might confuse some people.
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March 16th, 2019, 22:42
You presume he speaks the precise truth. Sadly it isn't exactly as he presented.

Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Be careful, Ripper. We're not used to seeing someone speak rationally about Steam and game clients in general here. You might confuse some people.
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March 16th, 2019, 22:55
Originally Posted by you View Post
You presume he speaks the precise truth. Sadly it isn't exactly as he presented.
Feel free to elaborate.
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March 17th, 2019, 01:02
Well, this whole Epic thing does seem to have put a few people in an agitated, even emotional state, and some of it seems pretty irrational to me. I think what Sweeney said on this issue is pretty fair:

"In analyzing these results, it's important to distinguish the normal from the abnormal… and to separate technical analysis from inflammatory rhetoric, such as the insane claim that we're a bunch of Chinese spies."
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March 17th, 2019, 09:53
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Non sense. When opting for a client, you usually do not receive a key for another client. Going for GOG means no Steam key.
You should learn read before to answer post, sigh.
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March 17th, 2019, 10:07
Originally Posted by Silver View Post
-I'm a backer so a Steam or GOG key has been promised after the one year exclusivity period has expired. This is what I'm referring too.
One year past release, it's a joke, even if this is the option I'll probably get.

Originally Posted by Silver View Post
-Epic can brag about user numbers if it likes. I will only be a temporary user.
Quite wrong, they won't organize rogue creation of false accounts to push up numbers, but your account will be forever until the store bankrupt.

Originally Posted by Silver View Post
-There is Phoenix Point discord and Snapshot forums for game feedback. Reddit too if I'm desperate. And of course this place will have some feedback.
Good for you, not for me, Snapshot forums is an UI crap, I don't like discord, and even less Reddit.

Originally Posted by Silver View Post
-At the end of the day Epic Games Store won't benefit from this but PP will.
PP/Gollop can be sure I'll never pledge anything with their name linked to it. And I'll probably be inclined to wait great sale before buy their products.

Epic Store would get one more false user, and a lot of publicity for free, that's a plus.

If there was no pledging, I doubt I would have bother, perhaps whine a tiny bit because Epic makes me vomit as a company, but nothing significant. That's the pledging and the behavior to manage it. I think it's fig, it wouldn't have happen happen in Kickstarter context. ivory tower complex for the first, CROWDfunding involvement for the second.
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March 17th, 2019, 11:35
Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
One year past release, it's a joke, even if this is the option I'll probably get.
Yeah far from ideal I agree.

Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Quite wrong, they won't organize rogue creation of false accounts to push up numbers, but your account will be forever until the store bankrupt.
I was under the impression you could cancel your account. If that isn't so - isn't that illegal?

Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Good for you, not for me, Snapshot forums is an UI crap, I don't like discord, and even less Reddit.
Fair enough. I'll probably check out some youtube playthroughs if thats not good enough.

Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
PP/Gollop can be sure I'll never pledge anything with their name linked to it. And I'll probably be inclined to wait great sale before buy their products.
Yeah. I get why you feel that way. I'm under the impression Gollop thinks about these things in a different way, but is becoming illuminated about different opinions now, shall we say.

Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
Epic Store would get one more false user, and a lot of publicity for free, that's a plus.
Nothing I can do about their numbers. I'm probably included as a customer already considering I have an Epic key assigned to me.

Originally Posted by Dasale View Post
If there was no pledging, I doubt I would have bother, perhaps whine a tiny bit because Epic makes me vomit as a company, but nothing significant. That's the pledging and the behavior to manage it. I think it's fig, it wouldn't have happen happen in Kickstarter context. ivory tower complex for the first, CROWDfunding involvement for the second.
Yeah it sucks. I hope Julian learns his lesson with this one. If he does I think forgiveness is a better way to go personally but its up to you really.
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March 17th, 2019, 11:59
Delete the account and the game? Even if you can it's not really an option.

Obviously the deal is done, Gollop could realize now his ivory tower was plain wrong, I doubt he can change anything.

Epic Key? They provide one even when you don't request it? I pledged the game, did they send email about keys that I didn't noticed?

Sure I could forgive later or even forget, certainly not today.

My decision is done, I won't go into any boredom with a refund process, I'll wait Gog/Steam release.
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March 18th, 2019, 11:28
Tim Sweeney comments on current and future Epic Store exclusive games.

Link - https://www.dsogaming.com/news/tim-s…clusive-games/
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March 18th, 2019, 15:29
It must be difficult for them a the moment. They still have a tiny size in the PC Market.

So when they do sign an exclusive I am pretty sure than the publishers come with predicted sale numbers. They compare that to the real number of people buying PC games on EPIC (something Epic must provide to them). And from there they probably want at least those predicted numbers + sugar coat on the deal.

I really doubt than any publisher is coming saying we accept to lose money because we do not care about the lesser market size of Epic, we run a charity.

That also mean either lesser games or games from poor countries like Russia or big few huge PR strikes costing a ton. Is that sustainable?
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March 18th, 2019, 15:37
No, I doubt it's sustainable. I think what they're doing is a loss-leader; taking losses on certain things as part of a larger strategy. I think that strategy is to invest in potential losses in the short term, in the hope of growing the platform to the point where is attractive enough not to require those incentives.
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