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November 24th, 2017, 02:12
Originally Posted by ramses01 View Post
Well I have bashed dark souls enough that I just presumed everyone knew how much that sucked. ME 2 was a great game, although it already had 1 foot out of the rpg door. D3 is a good, not great as it is no grim dawn, aRPG. The entire witcher series however has such horrendous combat that it is essentially unplayable. It nearly approaches Zelda levels of suck, which is borderline blackhole level.
Sorry, but I stopped at "ME 2 was a great game."
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November 24th, 2017, 10:11
ME 2 was a nice corridor shooter with lots of teenage melodrama - but this is about RPGs
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November 24th, 2017, 14:08
I really wish there was some other term for games such as ME2. It's not an RPG, not even an action RPG, far too shallow for either. But then again it's not a shooter either, as it does have some depth to it.

Something like "Deep Shooter" or "Story-shooter"? I dunno. I just think there's a unhealthy divide between more hardcore RPG's & their fans, & more casual ones too, because those of us who like old-school, deep RPG's keep getting bombarded with ME2's & Skyrims etc. only to play them and find something extremely watered down compared to their predecessors.

Nothing wrong with the watering down in isolation, I hate it personally, but I can understand it because there is an audience for it. It'd just be nice if we weren't often lead up the garden path to believe a game is gonna be something other than what it ends up being.
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November 24th, 2017, 14:14
If you want genres tailored for your perception of what games are - you should probably invent them youself.

If you want other people to use those same definitions, then you just need to make everyone agree first

Good luck with that!
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November 24th, 2017, 16:20
Originally Posted by NewDArt View Post
If you want genres tailored for your perception of what games are - you should probably invent them youself.

If you want other people to use those same definitions, then you just need to make everyone agree first

Good luck with that!
Haha, very true.

But things evolve, and hopefully terms will too. Back in the 90's the term "Open World" wasn't around in gaming. It's evolved because of what's changed along the way.

Hopefully the gaming community out there starts to recognize the difference between real RPG's, and games such as ME2, and said terms evolve naturally.

It'd actually probably reduce a lot of back-lash against such games, as people buy getting something more in line with what's expected.
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November 25th, 2017, 17:14
Originally Posted by Falksi View Post
Mass Effect>ME2
Steaming turd>Mass Effect>ME2
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November 25th, 2017, 20:10
I only played ME1 and 2 but would consider ME2 the far superior game. Yes, a few "RPG Elements" from the first part got scrapped. But they were horrible to begin with and contributed nothing to the game. I don't need an item system which just makes you dig through garbage every few hours.

Witcher 1 and 2 had absolutely horrible combat imho. I didn't play W3 but in terms of combat it couldn't be worse at least.

Don't remember Morrowind good enough to compare it with skyrim.

I agree on Dragonfall being the best Shadowrun game though.

Concerning the original List: Lots of great games there, but I'd also cross out a few ones:

Never Played:
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
Baldur’s Gate 2: Shadows of Amn
Dark Souls
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2

Games I'd consider great or significant:
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Pillars of Eternity
Planescape: Torment
Fallout: New Vegas
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Deus Ex
Mass Effect 2
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Mount & Blade: Warband
Diablo 3: Reaper of Souls (standing for Diablo in general without which we wouldn't have Path of Exile either)

The only ones I'd argue are not good or significant for the list and which I played are:
Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Short, not very good mechanics, not very interesting storytelling
Torment: Tides of Numenera - Some of the worst RPG mechanics, no Consequences for anything, more of a visual novel than an RPG
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November 25th, 2017, 21:33
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
I only played ME1 and 2 but would consider ME2 the far superior game. Yes, a few "RPG Elements" from the first part got scrapped. But they were horrible to begin with and contributed nothing to the game. I don't need an item system which just makes you dig through garbage every few hours.

Torment: Tides of Numenera - Some of the worst RPG mechanics, no Consequences for anything, more of a visual novel than an RPG
I have to disagree on ME case.
I can understand people liking ME2 more. It didn't have those horrible loadscreen hours wasted in elevators, not everyone adored bumping around in Mako like I did so EA removed it in ME2, then there was Miranda curves and dancing Asari, etc.
But ME2 introduced the most horrible and the worst minigame ever made: the sonar. It's grind the player to death mechanics was thankfully toned down in ME3, but bloody EA revived the stupid sonar grind thing in DA:I.
Whatta world this is where grinding sells.

There is another thing I have to disagree with. ToN is not even near the current state of VNs.
You can't just "play" through the whole VN by choosing things randomly and then pick any ending you like, in VNs whatever you choose during the story matters in the end.
On the other hand, ToN has a detailed class/level system (won't go into it's quality) whereas VNs are trying to stay away from it where the story branches only based on your choices, never based on potential skills/abilities your character or party has. There are some exceptions (I remember seeing some project on KS I didn't back as it's stills comics style).
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November 25th, 2017, 21:43
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
But ME2 introduced the most horrible and the worst minigame ever made: the sonar.
Yeah, that one was pretty bad. I actually used a workaround by changing the mouse sensitivy each time to a special setting, which didn't make it fun, but much less bothersome.

There is another thing I have to disagree with. ToN is not even near the current state of VNs.
First, you can't just "play" through VN and then choose the ending you like, in VNs whatever you choose during the story matters in the end.
Never "seriously" played a visual novel. But if you say that good ones do that I'll believe you.

On the other hand, ToN has a detailed class/level system (won't go into it's quality) whereas VNs are trying to stay away from it where the story branches only based on your choices, never based on potential skills/abilities your character or party has. There are some exceptions (I remember seeing some project on KS I didn't back as it's stills comics style).
Yes, ToN has a detailed class and level system. Just that it as well couldn't as it's consequences are completely and utterly pointless.
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November 25th, 2017, 21:51
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Never "seriously" played a visual novel. But if you say that good ones do that I'll believe you.
Not judging you.
That genre needs some shaking otherwise will "die" like adventures.
It's basically reading through walls of text while looking at a neverchanging screenshot for hours. And it's always some still pic. I mean, in year 2017, they can at least make some cycling gifs.
Before, I wouldn't refuse VN if people said it's good, but today… I just don't have time for it. I still consider graphic novels (comics) superior storytelling although are linear and without VO/music because those don't stall the reader by dragging one scene till doomsday.
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Last edited by joxer; November 25th, 2017 at 22:18.
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November 26th, 2017, 15:29
I thought this list was actually serious, for a moment, despite some disagreements on a few titles……until I got towards the end and saw stuff like Diablo 3, Dark Souls, and Shadowrun: Hong Kong.
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November 27th, 2017, 13:02
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
I only played ME1 and 2 but would consider ME2 the far superior game. Yes, a few "RPG Elements" from the first part got scrapped. But they were horrible to begin with and contributed nothing to the game. I don't need an item system which just makes you dig through garbage every few hours.

Witcher 1 and 2 had absolutely horrible combat imho. I didn't play W3 but in terms of combat it couldn't be worse at least.

Don't remember Morrowind good enough to compare it with skyrim.

I agree on Dragonfall being the best Shadowrun game though.

Concerning the original List: Lots of great games there, but I'd also cross out a few ones:

Never Played:
The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
Baldur’s Gate 2: Shadows of Amn
Dark Souls
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2

Games I'd consider great or significant:
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Pillars of Eternity
Planescape: Torment
Fallout: New Vegas
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines
Deus Ex
Mass Effect 2
The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Mount & Blade: Warband
Diablo 3: Reaper of Souls (standing for Diablo in general without which we wouldn't have Path of Exile either)

The only ones I'd argue are not good or significant for the list and which I played are:
Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Short, not very good mechanics, not very interesting storytelling
Torment: Tides of Numenera - Some of the worst RPG mechanics, no Consequences for anything, more of a visual novel than an RPG
ME1's main RPG elements which made it stand apart were the freedom of exploration & less streamlined dialogue options. Even then the dialogue was a bit too streamlined for my liking, but at least it didn't always scream "This is the good option, this is the bad option" much like ME2 & 3 did. Dragon Age 2 was when it became truly unbareable, with Bioware feeling the bizare need to tell me what each dialogue choice was outright. Mechanical aspects aside, overall ME2 felt like an action based spin off, kinda like ME the TV series. Whereas ME1 felt like a game about exploring the wonders of space. Which people prefer is just down to what they're after IMO.

Witcher 1's combat was dull, Witcher 2's combat was twitchy but great with a signs build on Dark Mode. I can definitely see why folk don't like it, but the overall feel you get of being a Witcher is bang on IMO. Preperation for fights & pre-fight thinking feel far more significant.

For me all that's happened in recent years is "RPGs" have morphed into something way more casual, yet still retain the "RPG" tag. ME2 the perfect example used earlier.

Nothing wrong with that, it's part of gaming evolution. But there's shed loads of hype & praise out there at the mo for "Best RPGs", when loads are just action games with a bit of fluff added.

Again, it all goes back to feel for me. Space Jock, Monster Hunter etc. capturing that & the originality in those roles is what for me personally makes a good RPG. I could play Gears of War & feel like I've played something very similar to ME2, and I could play Assisns Creed Origins and feel as if I played something similar to TW3 etc.
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