Treatment works a lot better if people know that they have work and friends to return to if they get sober. Part of the problem with drug/alcohol treatment is that it often comes too late, when the dependence is heavy and the addicted person has few if any friends left and work is gone. It becomes very hard to stay sober if you have nothing meaningfulto do.
VtM: Bloodlines 2 - Brian Mitsoda & Ka'ai Cluney Fired
- Thread starter Silver
- Start date
Treatment works a lot better if people know that they have work and friends to return to if they get sober. Part of the problem with drug/alcohol treatment is that it often comes too late, when the dependence is heavy and the addicted person has few if any friends left and work is gone. It becomes very hard to stay sober if you have nothing meaningfulto do.
So anyone who thinks up a good game is a legend? Even if it was effectively unplayable. Lots of those at many companies, to choose one that is often bashed - Bioware
To be even more pointed, he is a legend for something that was a good idea but badly implemented. The list of ’legends’ gets longer and longer.
I want to play a game. Therefore bugs are a part of my decision making and if the named lead doesn’t seem to care about bugs or has a history of releasing games with bugs that matters to me.
And, before you jump down my neck, I also have $$ tied up in the game.
Hexprone
Thou hast lost an eighth!
Mitsoda is a writer, not a programmer. VTM is one of the best written games of all time.
Umm, there is a logic hole for me. Regardless of the writing if there are bugs I can't see some/all(?) of this writing. To me, writing a game without effective implementation seems pretty cushy and unrealistic.
This makes me sad 
As several people say, Brian Mitsoda is a great writer, Bloodlines 1 is one of my favorite games and Dead State was super-great with the limited budget it had. Everything he touches, he makes better (imo) and I saw him as the heart and soul of Bloodlines 2, its reason to exist basically.
That they fire him now. Well, that is catastrophic for the title. I can't see this being about someone disagreeing with the story/politics, as yeah they should have known the gist of that 4 years ago, so why fire him now? Also, he was the one pushing for this game, you don't fire your singularly most important person unless there're massive problems of some kind. So of course there's something behind all this that is not disclosed. Probably to do with development problems/different visions. At least I really hope it's not something related to sexual harassment++, like with Avellone, but that is more or less the only thing where firing him would make sense both financially and artistically.
As it stands, I fear Bloodlines 2 will now devolve into something completely different (action focused), milking the name, where they will remove his writing and ideas and replace it with something (to me) less interesting.
What a shame, so I hope to be proven wrong.
As several people say, Brian Mitsoda is a great writer, Bloodlines 1 is one of my favorite games and Dead State was super-great with the limited budget it had. Everything he touches, he makes better (imo) and I saw him as the heart and soul of Bloodlines 2, its reason to exist basically. That they fire him now. Well, that is catastrophic for the title. I can't see this being about someone disagreeing with the story/politics, as yeah they should have known the gist of that 4 years ago, so why fire him now? Also, he was the one pushing for this game, you don't fire your singularly most important person unless there're massive problems of some kind. So of course there's something behind all this that is not disclosed. Probably to do with development problems/different visions. At least I really hope it's not something related to sexual harassment++, like with Avellone, but that is more or less the only thing where firing him would make sense both financially and artistically.
As it stands, I fear Bloodlines 2 will now devolve into something completely different (action focused), milking the name, where they will remove his writing and ideas and replace it with something (to me) less interesting.
What a shame, so I hope to be proven wrong.
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Old Grognard
Jaded Old-Timer
Repost.
The Codex found this post on Discord.
Can't verify it so as usual take it with a grain of salt.
The Codex found this post on Discord.
Can't verify it so as usual take it with a grain of salt.
Hexprone
Thou hast lost an eighth!
Maybe Masquerade is just doomed to be a great IP wrecked by mismanagement.
Even the VtM card game was a missed opportunity!
Even the VtM card game was a missed opportunity!
BlackVoid
Watchdog
Game design, project management, world creation and solid coding are all equally instrumental to a successful RPG release.
Releasing games in broken buggy state is usually a fault of the publisher. In VtM1 case Activision should have waited till summer. Or kicked Troyka harder.
How much Troyka was at fault is pretty clear too. Shit coding was apparent in all their games, whyle game design and narrative were varying from good to excellent.
Arcanum is still playable and enjoyable. Design was flawed, story was good. Bugs, many bugs.
ToEE was playable and bland as a porridge. Bugs, many bugs.
VtM1 was released in broken state and by the time it got fixed sales were lost for good (people who knew about broken release, just pirated it). Design wise, world creation, NPCs, narrative were all top notch for the time.
Game got cult following and many unofficial patches and improvements and is still one of the best games of the last 20 years, IMO.
I also pre-ordered the whole package (was around 90 € iirc) as soon as it was possible because VtM: B is one of my favorite game of all times. I also did it because I was sure Paradox would want to make this right because they are now the IP owner. Didn't know of Hardsuit Labs before, but the personnel (now gone) looked good.
So I hope this really was more about mismanagement of resources rather than story/plot or the game just being bad.
So I hope this really was more about mismanagement of resources rather than story/plot or the game just being bad.
Someone on the Paradox forums posted a screenshot of hardsuit getting a $1-2 million loan in May, so another guess could be that they are almost out of money.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tional-changes-on-bloodlines-2.1412115/page-6
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...tional-changes-on-bloodlines-2.1412115/page-6
@Old Grognard;
If your post is true, then I feel strangely more optimistic. Perhaps there is the core of a very good and ambitious game that has already been developed and that a very experienced game producer who has done big AAA games and who knows how to manage a big team can salvage. It also would mean Brian Mitsoda was not fired because of his creative vision, but because of his lack of practical skills. This matches what I know from Dead State, which also took extremely long to finish and which was buggy and rough around the edges at release.
If your post is true, then I feel strangely more optimistic. Perhaps there is the core of a very good and ambitious game that has already been developed and that a very experienced game producer who has done big AAA games and who knows how to manage a big team can salvage. It also would mean Brian Mitsoda was not fired because of his creative vision, but because of his lack of practical skills. This matches what I know from Dead State, which also took extremely long to finish and which was buggy and rough around the edges at release.
I agree with this. Managing a team, time and money might be a very different skill set compared to what Mitsoda is good at. Modern computer games are very complex, and no one can do everything. It's plausible at least.
It doesn't, however, explain that Mitsoda himself doesn't seem to understand what happened. He should know, unless paradox/hardsuit has bosses without communication skills, or he has severe problems himself with understanding other people. Or a combination.
lackblogger
SasqWatch
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Other employment opportunities are available to good writers, there's nothing holding them within the gaming industry when its been proven over and again that gaming industry skills isn't someone's strong suit.
Perhaps he should have applied to TellTale Games all those years back? Oh, wait...
Perhaps he should have applied to TellTale Games all those years back? Oh, wait...
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Glad I didn't pre-order. The studio's lack of RPG exoerience, as far as I know, has always made me nervous. Mitsoda was the only reason I was planning to buy it day 1. Now, I'll only buy it if it gets good reviews from people I trust.
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Old Grognard
Jaded Old-Timer
The codex dug up some more dirt about Brian Mitsoda.
Link - https://www.neogaf.com/threads/bloodlines-2-lead-writer-brian-mitsoda-fired.1561801/page-3#post-259789547
Seriously looks like he had no luck with his past jobs if true also.
Link - https://www.neogaf.com/threads/bloodlines-2-lead-writer-brian-mitsoda-fired.1561801/page-3#post-259789547
I know it seems like rumors, but they seemed pretty certain about it.
Sawyer did not leave Black Isle with the other Obsidian folks at first, he stayed and kept working on Van Buren until it was canceled, BUT regardless, I asked some more:
So Mitsoda was one of the few let go when the Fallout Fantasy project was ended (in 2001, I think?). I don't know much about this project.
When Fallout 3/Van Buren was hiring writers and designers (once Fallout 3 was becoming a reality after BG3: Black Hound was axed in 2002, I think, and Black Isle suddenly was without a project so they everyone was moved on to Fallout 3/Van Buren), word is Mitsoda was one of the ones who applied either on his own (before he went to Troika) or from Troika, apparently (although I suppose it's possible he re-applied after the layoffs from the Fallout Fantasy project and if rejected, went on to Troika and if so, good for him), but he did apply at that time and made it to the final round of applicants.
But that said, they were pretty clear Sawyer's firm no on Mitsoda caused him to get rejected from the Van Buren/Black Isle applicants. I don't know who was hired in Mitsoda's place, but it didn't matter much I suppose considering it sounded like the Van Buren game was on the chopping block because it was PC-only even before the team knew (if it had been something that could have gone to consoles, then it likely would have been kept and continued to try and be funded).
At Obsidian, you're right that Sawyer came after Mitsoda, and I don't think that was the situation at Obsidian for the reasons you state. It also doesn't sound like they worked on the same project when they were at Obsidian (or at least not primarily). Chances are that without Sawyer there is what allowed Mitsoda to be hired since Sawyer was out of the picture. BUT asking more:
Sawyer was the one who prevented Mitsoda from remaining at Obsidian once Mitsoda was being removed from Alpha Protocol - the approach internally was since Mitsoda wasn't working out on Alpha Protocol with the "organizational changes" and restructuring on that doomed title (Mitsoda "not working out" apparently was a judgment by the executive producer, whoever that was, but it was said that it was because Mitsoda wouldn't do any narrative changes and resisted changes to the old script despite the overhaul of the game), it was still felt Mitsoda might be able to move to Obsidian's other project (I think this was Aliens?), but it turned out the team (headed by Sawyer) had already intervened with the executive producer and said they would not want him on their project, so he had to leave Obsidian completely. It sounded pretty rough.
Also, I wouldn't take being invited on to Numenera as a badge of honor - it felt like they were hiring just about everyone, and chances are, it was more that the Producer on Numenera had worked with Brian at Obsidian that resulted in that KS goal and getting Brian on board. Even more fun, it sounds like they didn't even keep Brian in the loop for the writing, so they forgot all about him until nearly the last minute.
Man, Numenera… yikes. Talk about a game completely missing the point and missing what it's trying to emulate (the only example I can think of that's worse is Underworld Ascendant). I'm still amazed that the lead designer and lead writer even worked on the original Torment, because it didn't feel like they had or even knew what the original game was.
Sawyer did not leave Black Isle with the other Obsidian folks at first, he stayed and kept working on Van Buren until it was canceled, BUT regardless, I asked some more:
So Mitsoda was one of the few let go when the Fallout Fantasy project was ended (in 2001, I think?). I don't know much about this project.
When Fallout 3/Van Buren was hiring writers and designers (once Fallout 3 was becoming a reality after BG3: Black Hound was axed in 2002, I think, and Black Isle suddenly was without a project so they everyone was moved on to Fallout 3/Van Buren), word is Mitsoda was one of the ones who applied either on his own (before he went to Troika) or from Troika, apparently (although I suppose it's possible he re-applied after the layoffs from the Fallout Fantasy project and if rejected, went on to Troika and if so, good for him), but he did apply at that time and made it to the final round of applicants.
But that said, they were pretty clear Sawyer's firm no on Mitsoda caused him to get rejected from the Van Buren/Black Isle applicants. I don't know who was hired in Mitsoda's place, but it didn't matter much I suppose considering it sounded like the Van Buren game was on the chopping block because it was PC-only even before the team knew (if it had been something that could have gone to consoles, then it likely would have been kept and continued to try and be funded).
At Obsidian, you're right that Sawyer came after Mitsoda, and I don't think that was the situation at Obsidian for the reasons you state. It also doesn't sound like they worked on the same project when they were at Obsidian (or at least not primarily). Chances are that without Sawyer there is what allowed Mitsoda to be hired since Sawyer was out of the picture. BUT asking more:
Sawyer was the one who prevented Mitsoda from remaining at Obsidian once Mitsoda was being removed from Alpha Protocol - the approach internally was since Mitsoda wasn't working out on Alpha Protocol with the "organizational changes" and restructuring on that doomed title (Mitsoda "not working out" apparently was a judgment by the executive producer, whoever that was, but it was said that it was because Mitsoda wouldn't do any narrative changes and resisted changes to the old script despite the overhaul of the game), it was still felt Mitsoda might be able to move to Obsidian's other project (I think this was Aliens?), but it turned out the team (headed by Sawyer) had already intervened with the executive producer and said they would not want him on their project, so he had to leave Obsidian completely. It sounded pretty rough.
Also, I wouldn't take being invited on to Numenera as a badge of honor - it felt like they were hiring just about everyone, and chances are, it was more that the Producer on Numenera had worked with Brian at Obsidian that resulted in that KS goal and getting Brian on board. Even more fun, it sounds like they didn't even keep Brian in the loop for the writing, so they forgot all about him until nearly the last minute.
Man, Numenera… yikes. Talk about a game completely missing the point and missing what it's trying to emulate (the only example I can think of that's worse is Underworld Ascendant). I'm still amazed that the lead designer and lead writer even worked on the original Torment, because it didn't feel like they had or even knew what the original game was.
Maybe he really has problems with not being able to change stuff and getting stuck on his vision, and his vision only?The codex dug up some more dirt about Brian Mitsoda.
Link - https://www.neogaf.com/threads/bloo...n-mitsoda-fired.1561801/page-3#post-259789547
I know it seems like rumors, but they seemed pretty certain about it.
Sawyer did not leave Black Isle with the other Obsidian folks at first, he stayed and kept working on Van Buren until it was canceled, BUT regardless, I asked some more:
So Mitsoda was one of the few let go when the Fallout Fantasy project was ended (in 2001, I think?). I don't know much about this project.
When Fallout 3/Van Buren was hiring writers and designers (once Fallout 3 was becoming a reality after BG3: Black Hound was axed in 2002, I think, and Black Isle suddenly was without a project so they everyone was moved on to Fallout 3/Van Buren), word is Mitsoda was one of the ones who applied either on his own (before he went to Troika) or from Troika, apparently (although I suppose it's possible he re-applied after the layoffs from the Fallout Fantasy project and if rejected, went on to Troika and if so, good for him), but he did apply at that time and made it to the final round of applicants.
But that said, they were pretty clear Sawyer's firm no on Mitsoda caused him to get rejected from the Van Buren/Black Isle applicants. I don't know who was hired in Mitsoda's place, but it didn't matter much I suppose considering it sounded like the Van Buren game was on the chopping block because it was PC-only even before the team knew (if it had been something that could have gone to consoles, then it likely would have been kept and continued to try and be funded).
At Obsidian, you're right that Sawyer came after Mitsoda, and I don't think that was the situation at Obsidian for the reasons you state. It also doesn't sound like they worked on the same project when they were at Obsidian (or at least not primarily). Chances are that without Sawyer there is what allowed Mitsoda to be hired since Sawyer was out of the picture. BUT asking more:
Sawyer was the one who prevented Mitsoda from remaining at Obsidian once Mitsoda was being removed from Alpha Protocol - the approach internally was since Mitsoda wasn't working out on Alpha Protocol with the "organizational changes" and restructuring on that doomed title (Mitsoda "not working out" apparently was a judgment by the executive producer, whoever that was, but it was said that it was because Mitsoda wouldn't do any narrative changes and resisted changes to the old script despite the overhaul of the game), it was still felt Mitsoda might be able to move to Obsidian's other project (I think this was Aliens?), but it turned out the team (headed by Sawyer) had already intervened with the executive producer and said they would not want him on their project, so he had to leave Obsidian completely. It sounded pretty rough.
Also, I wouldn't take being invited on to Numenera as a badge of honor - it felt like they were hiring just about everyone, and chances are, it was more that the Producer on Numenera had worked with Brian at Obsidian that resulted in that KS goal and getting Brian on board. Even more fun, it sounds like they didn't even keep Brian in the loop for the writing, so they forgot all about him until nearly the last minute.
Man, Numenera… yikes. Talk about a game completely missing the point and missing what it's trying to emulate (the only example I can think of that's worse is Underworld Ascendant). I'm still amazed that the lead designer and lead writer even worked on the original Torment, because it didn't feel like they had or even knew what the original game was.
Seriously looks like he had no luck with his past jobs if true also.
Off-topic:
I wrote a few hand-in assignments in university with a classmate like that. We spent hours going over every single sentence looking for the perfect phrasing and words until they felt absolutely perfect to my classmate. After a few weeks and the first assignment I couldn't stand it and had to force him to accept "good enough".
My classmate was always late with assignments, due to this and everyone who had to work with him had to do 90% of the work or it wouldn't ever be handed in. When he finished stuff it was usually very high quality, but it was just too slow, too focused on details.
I really liked that guy, but he drove me nuts when we had to write together.
My classmate was always late with assignments, due to this and everyone who had to work with him had to do 90% of the work or it wouldn't ever be handed in. When he finished stuff it was usually very high quality, but it was just too slow, too focused on details.
I really liked that guy, but he drove me nuts when we had to write together.
JFarrell71
SasqWatch
One thing for me in all this is that Brian Mitsoda doesn't hold the same cache that he does for many of you. I think the original Bloodlines games is a great game, and I've played it multiple times. But a well written game? Eh, sometimes. It's nothing amazing in that department. And Mitsoda's other history is pretty spotty. Dead State wasn't great.
As far as the new guy, who knows. I do know that I enjoy some of the series he's worked on. Besides, it's not like they're re-writing the game from the ground up. He's there to bring it home, caulk the cracks, whatever.
It's never a good thing when a production has issues this major this far into it, but I don't necessarily think losing those two is its death knell.
As far as the new guy, who knows. I do know that I enjoy some of the series he's worked on. Besides, it's not like they're re-writing the game from the ground up. He's there to bring it home, caulk the cracks, whatever.
It's never a good thing when a production has issues this major this far into it, but I don't necessarily think losing those two is its death knell.
Ripper
Зичу Вам успіхів
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I suppose one question is whether he was hired as a permanent member of the studio, or if it was just a contract for this piece of work. If it's the latter, then the idea makes some sense that he might have been let go because the project was dragging on, and his input was no longer necessary. If it's the former, that seems more questionable. I'd have thought that in studios that maintain a permanent team of mixed disciplines, they must have a pipeline of production, where the writers and artists move on to pre-production of the next game after their contribution is complete.
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I smell monetisation bullshit coming for this game.
