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September 7th, 2018, 03:31
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
That entire sub-genre is the the Candy Crush of action RPGs. What were you expecting?
I wasn't expecting much after seeing the videos from this game, it has always looked somewhat like a Japanese Shoot 'em Up to me.

But i'm not sure i agree all actionRPG's needs to be like this. When i think of the old Diablo games i remember thinking they were both quite hard + kind of scary! All alone (in SP) in this dark atmosphere with hordes of demons and monsters coming at you. Dark Souls reminded me a bit of that feeling. Not that i was expecting DS from this, but the Action RPG genre doesnt need to be this generic. who's even been asking for something this generic is my question.. who backed this? Fans of.. what..? It can't have been fans of the old diablo games at least, if so the reviews would have bombed.
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September 7th, 2018, 03:38
From what I've seen, Grim Dawn has a great reputation among the players and old school rpg community. I'm not into this style of game normally, but this one grabbed me. I have 30 hours into it, and will go back to it eventually. Lots of fun when just in the mood to hack and slash a bunch of different monsters, and do dungeons by clearing out all the monsters and treasure, and so on. A game you can play very casually and relaxed, and not get too stressed out, lol.

What I'm playing -- I recently started back into Divinity: Original Sin Enhanced edition. I noticed others are also mentioning these games lately. Again, just amazed at how good a rpg and game that this is, so impressive. I think the combat system is one of the best ever in these types of games. Not to mention, the atmosphere, music, graphics - all are standouts.

My only complaint is I feel the game is too stingy when it comes to gold, and combines this with expensive prices for spells and skillbooks, and gear like weapons and armor, etc. When you have 4 character party it all adds up quickly, and it gets frustrating to not be able to buy that new juicy looking powerful spell or shiny magical equipment for your fighter. I went ahead and did an unlimited gold cheat finally, because it got too annoying/frustrating.

Besides that small niggle, I now have damn near 90 hours into the game, and only at level 10. I might surpass 200 hours on this one! This is one of those rare gems that will keep me interested enough to finish it, I think.

Updated: corrected error with game title.
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Last edited by Arkadia7; September 7th, 2018 at 03:52.
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September 7th, 2018, 03:48
Pretty sure Divine Divinity doesn't have an Enchanced Edition?

Divine Divinity was really amazing, much better than their new games. Just like the Gothic games it was very influenced by my favorite RPG's of all time; Ultima 7 I and II..

I think it found a great middle ground between something like Diablo and Baldur's Gate, but also not missing out on the little details that made Ultima 7 so charming and immersive.
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September 7th, 2018, 03:53
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
Pretty sure Divine Divinity doesn't have an Enchanced Edition?

Divine Divinity was really amazing, much better than their new games. Just like the Gothic games it was very influenced by my favorite RPG's of all time; Ultima 7 I and II..

lol, yea, oops! I meant Divinity: Original Sin enhanced edition. I edited and corrected it in my post. (blush) (how embarrassing!)
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September 7th, 2018, 03:56
Originally Posted by Arkadia7 View Post
lol, yea, oops! I meant Divinity: Original Sin enhanced edition. I edited and corrected it in my post. (blush) (how embarrassing!)
yeah i thought so. i did have to google Divine Divinity Enhanced Edition to see if i had missed out on something. I never got that far in Original Sin. Maybe i should try it again
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September 7th, 2018, 04:00
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
yeah i thought so. i did have to google Divine Divinity Enhanced Edition to see if i had missed out on something. I never got that far in Original Sin. Maybe i should try it again
Sounds like a good idea! I also think Divine Divinity was a great game too, by the way! Made me a Larian fanboy, for sure.
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September 7th, 2018, 04:22
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
Sounds good! I like hard, but it remains to be seen if i find it annoying or not.

When you die, do you lose something like money, gear?
You don't really lose anything in material gear but it just becomes incredibly tedious to have to re-play and slog through an area you've already slogged through multiple times to get to where you last left off encountering new areas. It happens every time you quit the game and reload later if you don't make it to the next save point. Bosses can be incredibly difficult on Veteran in later levels (or even early levels if you didn't build smart) but that re-playing of familiar areas is the real spirit crusher for me playing this game. I gave up.
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September 7th, 2018, 04:54
Originally Posted by JackOfOwls View Post
You don't really lose anything in material gear but it just becomes incredibly tedious to have to re-play and slog through an area you've already slogged through multiple times to get to where you last left off encountering new areas. It happens every time you quit the game and reload later if you don't make it to the next save point. Bosses can be incredibly difficult on Veteran in later levels (or even early levels if you didn't build smart) but that re-playing of familiar areas is the real spirit crusher for me playing this game. I gave up.
Good to know, thanks. I must have done a pretty good job with the build i think. But it remains to be seen in the later stages then.. I'll keep playing since.. loot.
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September 7th, 2018, 09:27
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
Grim Dawn. The Candy Crush of Action RPG's.

I'm not sure i like this, but i keep playing? The fighting reminds me a lot of digging in Terraria, it's not like the digging was that fun or hard, but it gets you stuff. I want to see what the next stuff is, and the next, ok, just one more hour.. no, make it two.

I am rather shocked at its genericness. Wasn't this a KS project? Were the "hardcore" fans happy with this outcome?? Or was it made clear from the start that it was going to be for the Candy Crush-generation?
No, you're right - it's pretty awful when it comes to the actual moment-to-moment gameplay.

Like Titan Quest before it, it's infested with "passive skill" syndrome - meaning the majority of your build revolves around passive enhancements to a tiny handful of active skills, which gets boring way too soon - as your build hardly changes in terms of the things you actually do.

Mechanically, it's a solid game - and I like how items grant actual unique skills - but unfortunately, I've yet to feel like I needed more than 2-4 skills to succeed from beginning to end.

Doing the exact same thing for 30+ hours gets really stale. It doesn't exactly help that the engine is something of a slog - and the areas are incredibly samey and dreary to look at.

I know there are builds where you need more, but that doesn't really help matters when my own playstyle doesn't jive with that.

Personally, I would recommend Path of Exile or Diablo 3 - if you want to play this particular genre and you want the actual gameplay to be fun.

For my own part, I've sort of moved towards the looter shooter genre to get this kind of fix - but there's really only one of them that I like enough to call it a serious competitor as a replacement for PoE or D3.

That would be Hellgate London - but it's so old these days.

Games like Destiny 2, Division, Warframe, Borderlands, Shadow Warrior 2 - and so on - are all great fun, and certainly much more visceral than Grim Dawn - but they're all rather superficial and shallow in terms of progression and depth when compared to the better Diablo clones. Well, ok, Warframe is definitely not shallow (I think it's probably the most rich in complexity out of all the games mentioned in this post) - but it's absurdly grindy and has almost zero content that's meaningful or worth pursuing, sadly.

Talking about ideal middle-ground, if you haven't tried it, I highly recommend the Lord of Terror campaign for NWN - if you can stand the old quirky stuff.

While 3rd Edition D&D doesn't have that many active skills (unless you're a spellcaster or you go out of your way to be feat-heavy) - it does have an absurd amount of progression weight.

Meaning, each and every level feels truly significant - which is very, very unlike Grim Dawn - where most of them feel like you're just adding a few percentages of something with the occasional and mostly superfluous added toy.
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September 7th, 2018, 11:22
Played a few more hours of NWN2 - and I'm having fun. It's so delightfully old-school in ambience and design.

It's also absolutely and positively TERRIBLE in technical terms. I have no idea how Obsidian managed to destroy the fluidity and quick response of the Aurora engine in such an accomplished way - but they certainly succeeded at that.

I mean, the game is, what, 12 years old and it still runs like shit.

But butů. Obsidian was never about technical competence.

I just arrived in Neverwinter and I'm looking forward to the party banter in the Inn

I'm dual-wielding Falchions - and I'm sort of questioning that decision. I'm taking a severe AB hit for what's ultimately not that much more damage.

I should have gone Kukri - is what my gut is telling me right now.
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September 7th, 2018, 11:48
@Darth Tagnan thanks for the suggestions. How's Diablo 3 in comparison, harder? Does it have better level design? I like the graphics here, but the level design itself is perhaps not too interesting really.

I also think that my "fix" for this type of game might end very abruptly and i just move on to real RPG's again hah
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September 7th, 2018, 12:06
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
@Darth Tagnan thanks for the suggestions. How's Diablo 3 in comparison, harder? Does it have better level design? I like the graphics here, but the level design itself is perhaps not too interesting really.

I also think that my "fix" for this type of game might end very abruptly and i just move on to real RPG's again hah
Yes, Diablo 3 has fantastic level design in terms of variety and ambience. Far, far beyond both Path of Exile and Grim Dawn.

But each game has its own strengths.

In terms of build diversity and complex character building - PoE wins by a country mile.

Diablo 3 CAN BE hard because it's designed by Blizzard. Blizzard are masters of "easy-to-learn-hard-to-master" and Diablo 3 is no exception.

But you'll never know it if you just go through the campaign not caring about the intricacies of the difficulty levels.

What they've done really, really well - is to implement a ton of very distinct creature behavior and powers. Meaning, you will eventually face some EXTREMELY hard fights with a combination of enemies that behave a certain way that's a good counter to your build - if you keep upping the difficulty - which is more or less what will happen if you focus on Rift running.

In that way, you get to decide your own level of challenge.

You could also simply start the campaign on the hardest level available - and it'll be a constant struggle. But that's not really intended and hardly much fun.

The problem with Rift running is that it's basically just a bunch of procedural levels with endless fighting.

I much prefer the campaign - and since you get to pick your own difficulty level - it becomes a little meta, where you only have yourself to thank if the game is too easy or too hard.

I don't really like that - and I prefer the old Diablo style of set-in-stone difficulties, though they eventually broke when you came up with a sufficiently strong build with great gear.
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September 7th, 2018, 12:26
Cool, good to know. Level design is important for me after all

edit: btw, is "Diablo III - Ultimate Evil Edition" a good choice if i decide to get the game? It contains the Reaper of Souls expansion. There are more expensive (and newer) collections too (eternal collection), not sure what they contain and if its worth paying 2x more for it.
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September 7th, 2018, 12:39
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
Cool, good to know. Level design is important for me after all

edit: btw, is "Diablo III - Ultimate Evil Edition" a good choice if i decide to get the game? It contains the Reaper of Souls expansion. There are more expensive (and newer) collections too (eternal collection), not sure what they contain and if its worth paying 2x more for it.
You definitely need the expansion as it has the best act and a great class

But if you're not into the genre, I don't know if Diablo will change your mind.

It's a very subjective thing. I know JDR doesn't understand (or appreciate) the genre at all, and I have no idea why he keeps subjecting himself to it.

Even the best Diablo clones (action rpg is too broad a term, I find) are NOTHING like a traditional RPG.

They're essentially about the purity of the power fantasy. They're about coming up with an effective build - and then chasing the carrot until your fantasy is fulfilled - which is when you have the loot and the skills you need to destroy everything to your satisfaction.

Certainly, that's what I think most fans would agree with.

Things like the story and the atmosphere are very important to ME - but for others it's completely secondary.

But the heart of these games is what I just mentioned - and the finer points will be more subjective still.

Personally, I'm extremely demanding as a gamer - so I really want it all. I want a good story, great visuals, fantastic combat - and so on.

I don't compromise when there are better games out there.

My own personal favorite Diablo clone is Diablo 3 - but it can be a shallow experience on the surface level. You don't really recognise the strength of the design until you've played for dozens of hours.

But that's common with Diablo, I find.

However, if you're in the mood for a more traditional CRPG - with plenty of meaningful quests and NPC interaction, etc. - it's definitely a bad choice.
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September 7th, 2018, 12:49
I can't say i'm totally into the ARPG genre. But there are some exceptions, just not anything recent. I played WoW for years for example, i loved the item and loot hunting. I wouldn't mind something kind of similar but Single Player. I think Grim Dawn kind of touches on that fix, they've done a good job with the looting overall, how you quickly can compare what's on the ground to what you have on you. There's thought put into it, making it quick and fun.
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September 7th, 2018, 12:54
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
I can't say i'm totally into the ARPG genre. But there are some exceptions, just not anything recent. I played WoW for years for example, i loved the item and loot hunting. I wouldn't mind something kind of similar but Single Player. I think Grim Dawn kind of touches on that fix, they've done a good job with the looting overall, how you quickly can compare what's on the ground to what you have on you. There's thought put into it, making it quick and fun.
The genre has come a long way

Some would argue it's to its detriment, but I prefer the modern games.

As for Diablo 3 and loot. If you really get into it, then promise me you'll wait until max level before you comment on the loot design.

Now, I don't agree with their design or the reasoning (essentially, everything non-set and non-legendary is complete trash) - but the loot gets interesting eventually, once you reach the end level. In fact, for strictly Diablo clones - I'd argue D3 has the best loot design of them all - but it does NOT begin until the endgame.

If you're willing to expand a little, then I think Hellgate London has even better loot.

Borderlands imitated it, but Hellgate London did it better.

In London, every weapon has a unique identity and personality ON TOP of the added stats. That's pretty huge - as even the crappier loot gets to be desirable just because you want to test them and discover just exactly how they work.

In Diablo, Grim Dawn and Path of Exile - weapons are essentially DPS sticks with mostly passive attributes on top. As in, one axe or sword is very much the same as the previous one - except for the better or worse DPS. GD does have weapons with skills - but that becomes part of the character and not the actual weapon.

Not so in HGL.

Diablo 3 is closer with its legendary item design - but still far from Hellgate London when it comes to weaponry.

So, if you're into the loot hunt - I highly recommend trying it out.

Warframe is also absurdly involved in terms of the loot - but again, it comes down to personal preferences.
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September 7th, 2018, 13:03
Not sure i want a "shooter" like Hellgate, thanks for the suggestion though! Sure, i'll wait to comment on the loot design if i decide to get D3
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September 7th, 2018, 13:05
Originally Posted by vurt View Post
Not sure i want a "shooter" like Hellgate, thanks for the suggestion though! Sure, i'll wait to comment on the loot design if i decide to get D3
Hellgate also features melee and spellcasters, though

But it's FP/TP as opposed to isometric.
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September 7th, 2018, 16:05
I heard from friends that Grim Dawn is excellent, but like others I find it hard to want to play an ARPG like that. Diablo 3 was amazing IMO, but I played co-op. Grim Dawn just isn't for me right now, but I wouldn't rule it out for fans of that style. It's dark and gritty, but also supposedly has excellent mechanics. My bud said it's the best ARPG he's ever played, and he's played a ton of games.
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September 7th, 2018, 18:31
Personally I found diablo/diablo 2 ok but nothing special and hellgate london complete garbage. I liked titan quest. I played around 10 hours of grim dawn and decided to wait for the explansions (second one is out later this year). It seemed much more quest oriented but i haven't played enough to form a solid opinion. I never bothered with diablo 3 because i found diablo 2 so mundane. That's just me - but i guess you all felt differnt.
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