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Default Elder Scrolls VI - No New Graphics Engine

November 13th, 2018, 13:58
There is no needs for new. Only improvement.

Weird demand this new stuff as people on this site are addicted to UgoIgo, an antiquated format and most products, not only do not add improvements to the UgoIgo department but also do not match the level of quality of past UgoIgo products.

Nothing new and worse.


Originally Posted by Drithius View Post
It's not refusal, it's complacency. Why change the recipe for the gruel if you got a line around the block?
Or focus.

The article reports physics issues over 60 FPS.

TES does not benefit from higher FPS. It adds nothing.
Running smoothly at 144FPS wont make it a good game. Running smoothly at 60 FPS capped wont make it a poor game.

This demand shows the cultural supremacist background: the product must be meant for people, if it is not, then people feel insecure.
This kind of demand come from people who buy a rig not to play game but products that run at max current technology.

TES6 is unlikely to show any improvement over TES5, causes wont be 60 FPS only.
Higher framerate adds nothing.
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November 13th, 2018, 14:10
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Running smoothly at 144FPS wont make it a good game. Running smoothly at 60 FPS capped wont make it a poor game.
144? Who on twitch cares. Stream output can't reach that frequency.
On the other hand, gamers gonna game.
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November 13th, 2018, 14:30
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
144? Who on twitch cares. Stream output can't reach that frequency.
On the other hand, gamers gonna game.
Please Joxer, it was the first post in months that Chien wrote without using the S word. But then, you had to provoke him.
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November 13th, 2018, 14:33
If I knew how to use meme generators on internet you'd be seeing an avatar "stirring the pot since apr 2009."
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November 13th, 2018, 14:40
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
(…) All I want from Bethesda game is to have pretty graphics and ability to decorate houses (…)
Wait, you can't give up those radiant quests, level-scaled enemies and randomized, boring loot only to stay at home, furnituring it
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November 13th, 2018, 15:15
I do not care that much about the Engine. Engine development, when an internal process, is done through lot of iterations and the codebase present in Skyrim has been modified a lot since the last 8 years.
With Bethesda, I am more concerned about bugs in the game itself and their slow or lack of support on that matter. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim Special Edition (2016) was launched with hundreds of bugs already present in the first version (2011).

For me Fallout 76 is not so much a game than their own little world scale beta to implement what every other huge companies have implemented years ago: Always Online.

Despite what people say it probably means Mod death, unless you consider skinning or changing the color of some objects a mod. It is unlikely than Bethesda would allow something like the Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch to correct the thousand of bugs still present in that game.
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November 13th, 2018, 16:54
Originally Posted by purpleblob View Post
To be honest, I don't feel any disappointment or anger towards this annoucement. All I want from Bethesda game is to have pretty graphics and ability to decorate houses - I will pick it up on hefty sale when modders have worked on their magic.
I'm with you, that's why I still play Morrowind. Modded graphics are decent and the lack of physics makes decorating easier.
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November 13th, 2018, 20:38
While I do like that the Creation/Gamebryo engines have been wonderful resources for modders, I'm not too happy to see this news (though predictable as it was).

I had been saying to friends and family for years that the Gamebryo/Creation engines were very old and outdated. Bethesda was so insistent on reusing older technology, that by the time a game like The Witcher 3 came along, it completely upended one of their titles (like Fallout 4) by showing them that a game could look gorgeous and run beautifully. Top notch writing, fantastic character development, and so much more were the cherries on top - much of which Bethesda titles lack already. Now Fallout 4's flaws are out there in the open for everyone to see. And I'm glad, because now the general public is starting to realize how, well, dated the foundation is.

Interestingly, it seems like some AAA studios get a free pass on good reviews, in that positive reception is proportionate to the amount of hype a game receives if it is made by a certain developer (Rockstar and Bethesda are good examples), even if the average player rating is much lower (RDR2 and Fallout 4 reflect that). Though, players are seemingly becoming more aware of developers recycling older designs, which is wonderful. Fallout 4 was fairly received by critics, but a lot of them made note about how aged it looked and functioned in comparison to recent games like TW3.

That said, I'm disappointed. I wanted Bethesda to spend the money and time to move on to something newer and better built - money is clearly not an issue. Again, I'm happy for the modders, but I shouldn't have to resort to using a mod to fix a quest bug or engine limitation.
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November 14th, 2018, 00:18
One thing I do know is that modders fix as much as they break. Meaning people are quick to say that beth games always need to be fixed by modders. Yet I played Morrowind, some of Oblivion, some of FO3, Skyrim, and FO4 all unmodded with few issues. Modding makes it better but modding can also cause some of the biggest head-aches. So I don't buy into the whole "broken" dogma people have with the games if only because personally I have never had any big issues with any of them. I have had far more problems using mods than without.

I have thousands of hours in the combined games and do not use unofficial patch mods - as often that becomes a modding headache to get compatible stuff. Most of the stuff they fix (although not all) is more minor and not game breaking. At least in my experience which is all I have to go by.

I seem to be lucky as so many games out there you find people who seem to stumble over every single bug in existence while others never seem to find them.

I also think the Beth engine does some things differently then say W3 or ACO or games like that as far as physics, tracking objects, interacting with things … but could be wrong on that. Was something I read by another poster on these forums a while back.

I have thousands of hours in games like Skyrim and FO4 yet only about 50 or so in W3 and that is because I restarted it 3 times trying to get into it and failed each time to get captured by it. So a fancier engine isn't enough to capture my interest so I have a strong bias there to begin with.

That being said I am not above wanting a new engine either. Just that I understand some of the reasoning on keeping the old one. Still eventually you need to upgrade to keep with the times (as @Maylander pointed out) and you can only patch, update, and try to renovate an old engine so much. FO4 is nice enough but you really need mods+ENB to make it look its best. That being said I never had issues with its mechanics myself so don't use any mods that change those.

Still I would love to see some type of game that merges RDR2 + W3 + SKYRIM.
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November 14th, 2018, 00:22
Originally Posted by Couchpotato View Post
Completely agree the Anvil Next Engine is perfect for open world RPGs. Just look at the villages,towns,and cities in Odyessy & Origins. Then compare them to other RPG games.
100% agree. Odyessy is amazing. Yes there's micro transactions but it's beautiful and right on the heels of Witcher 3 in quality.
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November 14th, 2018, 00:37
I totally respect your experience @wolfgrimdark but I do not know how you can play the full campaign of Skyrim without for example a mod like the Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch. There are like thousand of fixes, going from trivial misplaced texture mappings, to essential quest fixes. Many of those bugs being present since the first Skyrim edition.

I seem to remember some of your posts, years ago, where you mentioned you loved to mod Skyrim. You returned to the vanilla experience since?
The talk was around Werewolf: The Apocalypse, a tabletop from White wolf and you posted some screenshots of your quite modded Skyrim
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November 14th, 2018, 01:15
Originally Posted by ChatMiauleur View Post
I totally respect your experience @wolfgrimdark but I do not know how you can play the full campaign of Skyrim without for example a mod like the Unofficial Skyrim Special Edition Patch. There are like thousand of fixes, going from trivial misplaced texture mappings, to essential quest fixes. Many of those bugs being present since the first Skyrim edition.

I seem to remember some of your posts, years ago, where you mentioned you loved to mod Skyrim. You returned to the vanilla experience since?
The talk was around Werewolf: The Apocalypse, a tabletop from White wolf and you posted some screenshots of your quite modded Skyrim
I used the UNOF patch for a while but for the most part didn't see it as needed for my own game play. I simply didn't have that many issues with the base game and I have done all the main questlines for vanilla and all the DLC. When the UNOF moved to Legendary and a lot of mods became out of date that had dependency on it I stopped using it. I know it fixes tons and tons of things. But since my game worked fine without and I didn't seem to notice not having it installed, after playing for a month without it, I stopped using it as it meant more flexibility with many older mods I used.

I suspect some of that is little issues seldom bother me in games and the only issues I had were small side quests ones or ones that had work arounds - like the Vilkas one.

I have 3340 hours in Skyrim. Half of that is probably from time spent making ENB persets, mods, and doing story writing and screen-archery. The rest was mostly game play.

I still mod a lot though. I have 140 plugins (excluding official) and 267 overall mods. My game has been nice and stable ever since the fall creators update came out for win10. While I now use Vortex for FO4 I continue to use NMM for Skyrim. I don't use LOOT or BASH or any of that but I also don't use a lot of overhaul or complicated mods that tend to cause more conflicts.

I still play on classic though. Don't have any interest in SSE.

I just started a new game with a Tiefling character I made in the CK and have an existing game with a main character I write about. Overall running smooth so no real complains.

I am most certainly NOT saying the UNOF does nothing - its very useful for many people. I can only say in my own experience I simply have not had any big issues (where a big issue for me is a bug that crashes the game or otherwise breaks the main quest line). Could just be lucky after 7 years I guess.

PS - Also modders are a niche to some degree so obviously non-modders do not use the UNOF patch. I just don't think it is as really critical as some make it out to be. People's mileage varies on these things though. I know many passionate modders swear by it. I just don't happen to be one of them.
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November 14th, 2018, 02:32
Yuck, the same engine. Really? Yes, this is Bethesda….
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November 14th, 2018, 03:58
Originally Posted by wolfgrimdark View Post

I have thousands of hours in the combined games and do not use unofficial patch mods - as often that becomes a modding headache to get compatible stuff. Most of the stuff they fix (although not all) is more minor and not game breaking. At least in my experience which is all I have to go by.
I'm not a mod heavy player. I have hundreds of hours on PS3, 360, PC and PS4. The only 2 annoying bugs I can remember was:

1) Losing Lydia completely once. Just disappeared. Maybe she just hated being sworn to carry my burdens.

2) My weapons became a permanent fixture on my weapon rack in Solitude. It was fixed the next week with a patch.

That, and having to use a mod for Ultrawide support, since it's not official. Boohoo me.
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November 14th, 2018, 05:29
Originally Posted by Maylander View Post
At some point you need to start from scratch though. I'm currently (along with a big team obviously) in the process of building a business bank from scratch because it's simply not feasible anymore to keep working on the old legacy code. It's just not possible to upgrade it. Too many years have passed and the technology in use is too old. That goes for all legacy code. At some point it's basically a massive, outdated behemoth where every fix takes days instead of hours.

As for what's missing? Just play The Witcher 3. Fallout 4 was released about six months after The Witcher 3, yet it was years behind it in terms of technology. No amount of modding will fix the fractured world, the lacking facial animations or the broken physics.
Again I get what you're saying, but a lot of it is still just an experienced guess when it comes to game engines. I also work for an enterprise company, and we have an entire team of developers that do nothing but fix and re-write in-house enterprise accounting software programs full time. If you're still using an old Foxpro database, eventually you're going to want to migrate that to an SQL backbone. Foxpro was fine back in the day for a light or Shell OS like DOS or Win 3.1, but when pre-emptive multitasking OSes became the stable ones of choice, then it was time for a re-write. When saying the legacy code becomes a massive outdated behemoth, it's an oversimplification of the facts. What's really happening with old code, is it's designed to work with an old operation system. So when just updating the legacy code, you're essentially designing your own integrated emulator. You're designing a way for the old code to talk to the new OS and its core applications. The old program iterations probably went something like this:

1) Foxpro DB > Single Task OS Program (DOS)

2) Foxpro DB > Single Task OS Program > GUI Shell (Win 3.1)

3) Foxpro DB > Single Task OS Program > GUI Shell > Compatibility Layer > Win 95/98 GUI Shell

4) Foxpro DB > Single Task OS Program > GUI Shell > Compatibility Layer > Win 95/98 GUI Shell > Compatibility Layer > WinNT Application

Now we see the complications compounding, so we decide on a re-write:

- Export Foxpro DB to CSV

5) SQL DB > WinNT Application

- Import CSV to SQL DB

Now the OS progression is much less dramatic. Once you've gone that route, you keep the core code, and upgrade your DB backbone with newer iterations of SQL, and anything else can be upgraded with some sort of MSVS script like VB or VCPP (which is why everything you install these days always wants a new version of .NET or some sort of MSVS runtime).

A fairly updated game engine doesn't have near as much as an issue. Most engines are just using a few different APIs, that can be changed or upgraded, and the core code-base can stay similar. It's also why almost every engine has some sort of DX or OpenGL element to it. And of course i'm oversimplifying it, but there's a difference.

Re-writing banking software makes sense. If that's the decision they made, then there was an enterprise risk analyses done, and from a financial perspective (including future legal and security costs), it would probably cost less money in the long run. You can absolutely bet on a company the size of Beth also having a risk analysis team.

As for Witcher 3 as a comparison, that's apples to oranges. You've got one game that's story oriented, and one that is exploration oriented. They each have both, but one is heavily biased. Witcher 1 used a modified version of the NWN Aurora engine. Yet the graphics and animation compared to NWN was very obviously superior (in some ways it was probably better than vanilla Skyrim). Fallout 4 compared to Witcher 3 wasn't necessarily because one engine was superior, it was mostly because the animators and artists were superior. And personally I agree Bethesda needs to improve those aspects. They've improved over the generations, but there are those that do it much better. However, that doesn't mean it's needed in the form of a brand new engine. In fact, as far as physics issues go that you mentioned, the Redengine in Witcher 3 originally used the Havok engine (currently used in Bethesda's Creation Engine), but was switched to PhysX. Bethesda could go a similar route with the hints technological horsepower needed for future projects that Howard has talked about. This won't need a new engine. This is no longer "legacy" code. Daggerfall was legacy code. And then there's modding. We were promised that Witcher 3 would surpass Skyrim and Fallout for modding. Mods are there, but it's not nearly as accessible. Neither engine is superior, but CDP probably did take better advantage of theirs.

And ironically, the reason CDP upgraded their engine in Witcher 2 was not to because of the limitations of the software, it was the limitations of the console hardware at the time. If you think the Creation Engine is a resource hog, try going back to playing Witcher 2 on PC and see how well that beast performs (hint: not so well considering the generation of hardware it was designed to run on).

EDIT: Sorry Couch! Large wall of text
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November 14th, 2018, 10:42
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
When saying the legacy code becomes a massive outdated behemoth, it's an oversimplification of the facts. What's really happening with old code, is it's designed to work with an old operation system.
No, I'm actually talking about literal behemoths here. The code in question takes 20 minutes to build on high end hardware. Every single build. Whenever a developer gets tasked with any kind of fixes in it, you can consider him gone for the week as he just fires up the XKCD comic about code compiling and then spends the rest of the week trying to remain sane.

Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
So when just updating the legacy code, you're essentially designing your own integrated emulator. You're designing a way for the old code to talk to the new OS and its core applications. The old program iterations probably went something like this:

1) Foxpro DB > Single Task OS Program (DOS)

2) Foxpro DB > Single Task OS Program > GUI Shell (Win 3.1)

3) Foxpro DB > Single Task OS Program > GUI Shell > Compatibility Layer > Win 95/98 GUI Shell

4) Foxpro DB > Single Task OS Program > GUI Shell > Compatibility Layer > Win 95/98 GUI Shell > Compatibility Layer > WinNT Application

Now we see the complications compounding, so we decide on a re-write:

- Export Foxpro DB to CSV

5) SQL DB > WinNT Application

- Import CSV to SQL DB

Now the OS progression is much less dramatic. Once you've gone that route, you keep the core code, and upgrade your DB backbone with newer iterations of SQL, and anything else can be upgraded with some sort of MSVS script like VB or VCPP (which is why everything you install these days always wants a new version of .NET or some sort of MSVS runtime).
This approach works for databases and similar. It doesn't really work for monolithic applications, as everything is self-contained. It doesn't have endpoints. The GUI is directly attached to the business logic.

Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
A fairly updated game engine doesn't have near as much as an issue. Most engines are just using a few different APIs, that can be changed or upgraded, and the core code-base can stay similar. It's also why almost every engine has some sort of DX or OpenGL element to it. And of course i'm oversimplifying it, but there's a difference.

Re-writing banking software makes sense. If that's the decision they made, then there was an enterprise risk analyses done, and from a financial perspective (including future legal and security costs), it would probably cost less money in the long run. You can absolutely bet on a company the size of Beth also having a risk analysis team.

As for Witcher 3 as a comparison, that's apples to oranges. You've got one game that's story oriented, and one that is exploration oriented. They each have both, but one is heavily biased. Witcher 1 used a modified version of the NWN Aurora engine. Yet the graphics and animation compared to NWN was very obviously superior (in some ways it was probably better than vanilla Skyrim). Fallout 4 compared to Witcher 3 wasn't necessarily because one engine was superior, it was mostly because the animators and artists were superior. And personally I agree Bethesda needs to improve those aspects. They've improved over the generations, but there are those that do it much better. However, that doesn't mean it's needed in the form of a brand new engine. In fact, as far as physics issues go that you mentioned, the Redengine in Witcher 3 originally used the Havok engine (currently used in Bethesda's Creation Engine), but was switched to PhysX. Bethesda could go a similar route with the hints technological horsepower needed for future projects that Howard has talked about. This won't need a new engine. This is no longer "legacy" code. Daggerfall was legacy code. And then there's modding. We were promised that Witcher 3 would surpass Skyrim and Fallout for modding. Mods are there, but it's not nearly as accessible. Neither engine is superior, but CDP probably did take better advantage of theirs.

And ironically, the reason CDP upgraded their engine in Witcher 2 was not to because of the limitations of the software, it was the limitations of the console hardware at the time. If you think the Creation Engine is a resource hog, try going back to playing Witcher 2 on PC and see how well that beast performs (hint: not so well considering the generation of hardware it was designed to run on).

EDIT: Sorry Couch! Large wall of text
The Witcher 1 is an excellent example. They re-wrote half the engine, and they were still struggling with the limitations of the Aurora Engine, because the Aurora Engine has huge problems with the Z-axis, and that's not something you can easily rectify. It's why you can't jump over the tinyest pebble in the game. It made perfect sense for them to create a new engine from scratch as soon as they had the funding for it (REDengine).

At some point, the Creation Engine will be in a similar position. In my opinion it already is. It's the Aurora Engine at this point, and certain parts of it, such as the basic handling of physics, requires a massive overhaul to fix. The same goes for the fragmantation of the world where each building requires a loading screen. I have no doubt they can make TES6 look good in terms of having a beautiful sunset or whatever, but I strongly suspect it will still feel very outdated.

Edit: We obviously won't know until it's out, however, so we'll have to wait and see how it turns out.
Last edited by Maylander; November 14th, 2018 at 11:22.
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November 14th, 2018, 10:49
Originally Posted by Caddy View Post
EDIT: Sorry Couch! Large wall of text
No problem I'm bushy eyed and awake with my one gallon cup of coffee at 4am in the morning. Just stopped in to check replies then going back to Assassin Creed Odyssey.
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November 14th, 2018, 14:01
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
144? Who on twitch cares. Stream output can't reach that frequency.
On the other hand, gamers gonna game.
Gamers dismiss that story of 60 FPS as it does not affect gameplay.


Originally Posted by henriquejr View Post
Please Joxer, it was the first post in months that Chien wrote without using the S word. But then, you had to provoke him.
One month is a long time, months ever longer.

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November 14th, 2018, 14:08
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
Gamers dismiss that story of 60 FPS as it does not affect gameplay.
But it does.
What it doesn't affect is watching a slideshow. A slideshow may as well run 1 FPS, it'll still be passive watching. Not gaming.
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November 14th, 2018, 18:29
I agree that this sucks, especially considering how long we've been waiting for ES6 (and we still have a ways to go). I often don't really care much about the graphics of games unless they're terrible. Yeah, it's great that modders will be able to hop right in and start fixing everything for Bethesda, but I think Maylander is right and this engine is just getting too bloated and cumbersome by now. Also sucks to hear that the engine is limiting modders from doing some stuff.

Overall though, my biggest concern about ES6 is about the gameplay. Ever since Morrowind (I never played the earlier ones, so I can't comment on those), the gameplay has been getting dumbed down with every new entry (same with the Bethesda Fallout games). If the trend continues like it has been, it'll end up being an action-adventure game by ES9 or 10 (probably in the year 2080).
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