Dungeon Siege 3 - Review @ Suicide Girls

fastica said:

Exactly.
Want an example of a hack & slash well ported to PC? Deathspank

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I heard about the game but never played it. How is it?

Actually Deathspank was originally being made for the PC before they changed it for the Xbox 360 so actually the Xbox 360 version is more of a port then the PC version.

Couchpotato said:

Then go play on your xbox. I dont use a controller on my pc and never will.

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Uh, I don't have an Xbox. And you're being silly... controllers have been part of PC gaming since it started, they're older than mice.

DoctorNarrative said:

Uh, I don't have an Xbox. And you're being silly… controllers have been part of PC gaming since it started, they're older than mice.

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So, because they're an optional peripheral - people should be expected to buy and use them in a game that would work perfectly with mouse/kb?

Are you seriously suggesting that Obsidian did what they could to make the mouse/kb controls work well?

The percentage of PC gamers who own and are comfortable with using controllers is how high?

Is there a good reason NOT to make decent mouse/kb controls in a game like Dungeon Siege 3?

FYI I have absolutely nothing against controllers. I own both a PS3 and an Xbox 360 - and I've been using my PS3 controller to test DS3. It works very well.

That's not the issue though, and it's not just about me. It's about what you can reasonably expect from developers when making a PC port. Especially when you consider the legacy of Dungeon Siege. One of the primary strengths of this franchise was always, in fact, the fantastic and flexible controls. It has always been a mouse/kb game at heart.

I understand that some people own and use a controller regularly on PC, but to have them defend this lazy PC attention is surprising, considering we're at the Watch.

Couchpotato said:

And this game is an rpg. So it has no excuse.

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It is all subjective. Nothing tells that RPGs should be played with keyboard and mouse. Some might feel an optimized UI for mouse and keyboard plays better with a controller and reversely.

It is all a matter of opinions. Then there is an excuse.

To put this matter to rest a pc game should not require me or anyone to use a controller. Keyboard and mouse has been the default controllers for a while. Now if it was optional like most ports and not obvious they made it better on controllers then fine.

This has me worried since more developers are starting to use controllers and tacking on keyboard and mouse controls latter. Look at the article about rage were they wont even let the testers and developers play with a mouse and keyboard till the console version is done first.

Im sorry that I never will like using a controller for game since the aiming puts me off when to comes to playing fps. I own three consoles and mostly play action and rpg games on them. To sum it up dont tack on a control scheme and then lie it was optimized for consoles and pc.

Couchpotato said:

To put this matter to rest a pc game should not require me or anyone to use a controller. Keyboard and mouse has been the default controllers for a while. Now if it was optional like most ports and not obvious they made it better on controllers then fine.

This has me worried since more developers are starting to use controllers and tacking on keyboard and mouse controls latter. Look at the article about rage were they wont even let the testers and developers play with a mouse and keyboard till the console version is done first.

Im sorry that I never will like using a controller for game since the aiming puts me off when to comes to playing fps. I own three consoles and mostly play action and rpg games on them. To sum it up dont tack on a control scheme and then lie it was optimized for consoles and pc.

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Strange reasoning. I remember well buying a Joystick for my PC flight sims, and a Racing Wheel for my PC racing sims, when I was into that style of games. Because playing them with mouse and keboard sucked. People buy special gaming mouses and gaming keyboards for their FPSs - to have an edge or for convenience. Why shouldn't one buy a controller to get the most out of certain action games, if one enjoys them? Thats the nice thing about the PC platform that it is so flexible and open. PC game != mouse and keyboard game.

Anyway, more to the point, I think Tilean never said he plays with a controller? As far as I can tell from his post he is playing with mouse and keyboard, that actually seems to be his point that he says it controls well using PC controls. If so, maybe the discussion should go in a different direction anyway.

I think you're missing the point GBG.

If developers start adopting the controller for CRPGs, we'll be facing inferior UIs in our favorite genre.

I know developers have managed to implement workable controls for RPGs on consoles, but it doesn't take much insight into the genre - and the history of the genre - to realise what happens when your mindset is on the controller.

There is a distinct lack of flexibility in a complicated game like most CRPGs tend to be.

So, this will be yet another excuse for streamlining and dumbing down gameplay - even if you do a PC port.

Some of us don't appreciate how these things change in subtle ways, and I like to speak out against it BEFORE it becomes an issue. Not because I can make a difference by myself - but because it's my hope that people listen and respond if they agree with me.

Some people look at things in a vacuum and forget the far-reaching implications of changing established and fundamental paradigms.

That's why I worry a bit when people shrug it off as a trivial concern. It might be trivial right now - but if we blindly accept this kind of change, we'll be helping developers take the easiest route away from PC strengths.

DArtagnan I have to say your 100 percent right. It might be trivial now but I would hate to say I told you so in a few years to people. Then again some people just dont care and accept everything without question.

People fail to see what I'm trying to say is Obsidian lied about optimizing the controls for pc and console. I have no problem if the controller setup is optional but its the preferred control for both systems and its obvious. The game is still decent just badly optimized for the pc.

Well I have to disagree. I don't think a conroller is a fundamentally flawed input device. It works well for certain games, and I think Hack&Slays are among them (and thats what this game is, right?). Of course I don't want all CRPGs to be designed for controllers (hell I don't even own a controller myself!). i know very well how omitting the keyboard constrains certain design options that are important to full-blooded CRPGs. No argument. But I have no problem if certain action games play better with a controller. Wether I'll buy one and play these games, is my decision.

Wether Obsidian lied, I don't know - if Tilean played it with M&KB as I thought, maybe thats not a universal truth. It's not so long since this community was completely devided about the merits of another combat system - TW2.

GhanBuriGhan said:

Well I have to disagree. I don't think a conroller is a fundamentally flawed input device. It works well for certain games, and I think Hack&Slays are among them (and thats what this game is, right?). Of course I don't want all CRPGs to be designed for controllers (hell I don't even own a controller myself!). i know very well how omitting the keyboard constrains certain design options that are important to full-blooded CRPGs. No argument. But I have no problem if certain action games play better with a controller. Wether I'll buy one and play these games, is my decision.

Wether Obsidian lied, I don't know - if Tilean played it with M&KB as I thought, maybe thats not a universal truth. It's not so long since this community was completely devided about the merits of another combat system - TW2.

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I'm not saying it's a fundamentally flawed input device. I'm saying it's not an ideal input device for complex games. Even if it was, mouse/kb should be equally ideal - shouldn't they.

Yeah, we decide what we want to buy ourselves. We can't, however, decide what's available to buy for ourselves. However, we do have the power to support certain trends or not.

Maybe you'd be perfectly happy as long as you have the option not to buy something. Personally, I prefer having access to games that control as I want them to - and as it makes sense to me. If, at some point, PC CRPGs will start expecting players to use controllers - then I'll no longer have the power to do anything about it. I'll have to accept it, or not play PC CRPGs.

I'm saying it's a BIG problem when developers ignore established PC controls - especially when a controller is NOT something you can expect players to own.

DS3 is a simplistic game, because they designed it that way. So, the controller works well for it. But there's zero excuse not to have mouse/kb work just as well.

Now, I can't prove this - but my claim is that it might NOT have been quite so simplistic if the controller hadn't been such a huge part of their mindset when developing the game.

"Little" things like what you use for controls is actually pretty huge when you sit down and figure out what players should be able to do, at any given point in the game.

If you look at what was possible in the first two games of this franchise - you might be shocked to learn just how many things they took away. Obviously, not all of that has to do with it being a console-oriented game - and not all of it has to do with the controller.

I'm just wondering if you've REALLY considered what happens during the game design process, when a controller is the expected way of playing the game?

This isn't about DS3 or how lazy Obsidian have been with the PC controls. This is about not supporting a precedent, that just might establish itself when so many are willing to shrug it off as trivial.

Remember what happened to Oblivion - as opposed to Morrowind - in terms of UI and controls?

Do you really think complexity and interface flexibility exist outside the boundaries of the platform?

Now, the interface is one thing - and I think we've all given up the fight against consolised interfaces. Well, I think many of us have.

Now, it seems, we should prepare to give up the fight for decent and flexible controls as well.

Sad.

I sort agree with GBH. Controllers have their place for certain games even on PC. So I am fine with developer saying controllers are recommend for this game even on PC.

What makes me mad is when they release a game for PC, they don't make any effort to make their game playable on the keyboard and mouse.

DoctorNarrative said:

Uh, I don't have an Xbox. And you're being silly… controllers have been part of PC gaming since it started, they're older than mice.

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Really ? The Mouse as such was developed in the 60s, as far as I know.

However, if you mean the common use of the mouse on an PC, then you are right, I think.

Couchpotato said:

To put this matter to rest a pc game should not require me or anyone to use a controller. Keyboard and mouse has been the default controllers for a while.

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Getting people to play a PC game with controllers for optimal experience is nothing different from getting them to play with a powerful enough Vcard/proc/X ram.

DArtagnan said:

I think you're missing the point GBG.

If developers start adopting the controller for CRPGs, we'll be facing inferior UIs in our favorite genre.

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It reads extremelly hard for developpers to stick to keyboard/mouse for a genre some advocate as all subjective.

How can developpers state their game is a RPG and go for keyboard/mouse while it is well known RPGs are all a matter of opinion?

People face nothing more than getting a controller/UI they like or dont like.

GhanBuriGhan said:

It works well for certain games, and I think Hack&Slays are among them (and thats what this game is, right?).

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That might or might not be the case. It is all subjective and makes it hard to request that developpers stick to a certain kind of controllers for games in a genre that might be or might not.

what the fuck is this GUY reviewing the game?

It's the Suicide Girls site, their blog, wtf? One of the girls should be reviewing the game.

lame

lostforever said:

I sort agree with GBH. Controllers have their place for certain games even on PC. So I am fine with developer saying controllers are recommend for this game even on PC.

What makes me mad is when they release a game for PC, they don't make any effort to make their game playable on the keyboard and mouse.

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But the point you seemed to agree to in your first sentence is: why should people have to release games on the PC designed for the keyboard and mouse? Why can't a developer design a game to be played on the PC with a gamepad first and foremost? Like flight sim, you might be able to use a mouse and keyboard, but it's really naff compared to using the controller the game was designed for.

I'm happy with free choice - RPGs can be designed for keyboard and mouse, especially click to move, tactical or first person perspective ones. But likewise any game with relative movement is likely to be better designed for gamepad - ultima 8 would have been better on a gamepad for example.

wow, looking at the front page all the articles are written by men. Just sit there and look pretty, let the men take care of that writing stuff. You go, girls. Girl powah, LOL

kalniel said:

But the point you seemed to agree to in your first sentence is: why should people have to release games on the PC designed for the keyboard and mouse? Why can't a developer design a game to be played on the PC with a gamepad first and foremost?

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They can, but at least for certain (sub)genres it would be rather stupid, loss of customers and all that.
If they do it though, they should clearly inform about that and I don´t see a controller among recommended requirements for DS3.
I´m pretty sure that after the demo feedback Obsidian realized it was a misstep and they´ll try to patch it in some manner.

Control issues aside, if I´d been interested in the game I think the real killer for me would be available camera angles.