Returning to Ultima via U8: Pagan

Greetings Watchers

Back in mid 2000 or so, I purchased the Dragon edition of Ultima: Ascension, which included a compilation of Ultima's 1-8. It was one of the grandest game packages I'd ever bought up to that point. Thus began my long ardent quest to play this wonderful series in general chronological order! (Ignoring the spin-offs for the time being…) Since I'm up to U8 - it means that ironically, I'm yet to actually play Ascension and complete it. I have had a peek at it a couple of times over the years, but have decided to maintain my willpower and play the games as I think they should be played. Reviews and reportages mean that I do not carry excessive expectations about it. However, I'd love to get started on it and perhaps finish this year.

Before this point, I'd only played and finished the two Underworld games.
Back in those days, before I had internet - I had much more time to keep detailed notes and notepad files of my gaming exploits. Strangely enough, I've even got all of my dates for when I completed the games and the durations for which I played them on and off. I'll list them here for fun:

Akalabeth: 5 weeks, 6 days!
U1: 1 week, 5 days
U2: 10 weeks exactly (Found it very difficult to get into at first)
U3: 4 weeks, 2 days. (The first really addictive Ultima for me)
U4: 5 weeks exactly (Absolutely adored this experience)
U5: 13 weeks, 3 days (Also a wonderful game)
U6: 3 weeks, 5 days (It was a massive change engine wise, but I found it easier to play)
U7: Something like 3 years! (2002-2005) I even built a Dx4 100 especially to run it and later experimented with Exult. This was a long journey - a tough but utterly brilliant game.
SI: About four years on and off! (2005-2009) (With Exult) More dungeon-crawling oriented than U7 at times with some technical puzzle-solving, but I slugged it out and still enjoyed it - though not quite as much as U7.

And so! To Pagan! I remember hiring it back in '95 or so from a video store for a week and just getting completely sucked into the game world, but ultimately not getting very far as the style of game was very new to me then.

But gradually, I've decided to get back into it. I think I played it for about three months last year before getting distracted by something (a common unfortunate trait in this modern age.) I remember that I got as far as completing the Pilgrimage for the Necromancers and had just found the Heart of the Earth but was getting confused as to what to do next. I figure story wise, it'll involve moving on to one of the other Titans…but I'm struggling to figure out exactly where to go to undertake this.

So, I was thinking that perhaps some of the Ultima veterans here may be able to provide me with some hints and tips to help me with navigation - as I seem to be doing circles in the Upper Catacombs/Caves area. Can anyone assist?

In my current savegame, I'm playing around with the recall item and teleporting to various places and just exploring again to get my head around the maps and various spaces. Hopefully it doesn't have a limitation on charges, because I'm using it a good deal! Short of fully mapping the caves and catacombs, I'm not sure where I'm meant to head next, but am eager to make progress once more in the game!

Even if you cannot help - feel free to tell a tale or two (without spoilers, naturally) of your own experiences with Super Mario Avatar. (U8: Pagan)

Cheers

I found the catacombs to be slightly confusing. If my memory serves you should go to

Anyway, I don't actually think that Ultima 8 deserves most of the hate that it receives. While the game is far from perfect, and not as good or interesting as Ultima 7, it remains a solid, and overall well balanced game (I did not find Ultima 7 to be well balanced, in particular not the reward that you got for completing the forge of virtues).

Thanks for the response Fnord!

I've made some progress just by exploring past the teleporter in the Upper Catacombs. By thinking with the ol' fashioned adage 'follow the right wall', I managed to find a door out of the catacombs and into the caves to the southeast.

This lead me to a long winding corridor, where I eventually found a locked door which I opened with the Key of the Scion. I've now discovered the Theurgists and the island of Argentrock, so can hopefully continue the next phase of the game.

I agree in part about U8, although some of the magic of U7 is missing and the world lacks the interactive depth. I also find the animation detail a little tedious at times and don't enjoy the jumping around that much.

But you're right - there's still the fun elements of exploration and familiar Ultima gameplay mechanics, albeit without the party dynamics from the previous games. I'm still enjoying it though and it'll be a true pleasure to finally complete it.

Just a little update:

I've made some more progress - I finally sorted out my navigation issues. Just wandered around slowly and became attuned to the pattern and structure of the Upper Catacombs and eventually found entrances to both Carthax Lake and the Lava River. I finished up everything I could at Argentrock Isle and did some more plot related stuff.

I'm now up to the Sorcerer's Enclave and are preparing for their test. There's quite a bit of fidgety pedantic work with reagents and the movement of candles which I'm fiddling with and getting used to. It can be a little awkward though!
This will be the final Titan, once I finally get to meet it…interesting to see what happens.

A funny moment: The response from Torwin when I accidentally clicked on the "I'd like some healing" dialogue option when I already had full health.
He said something like:

"Agh! I have no time for hangnails and paper-cuts!"

Then he stormed out of the room and muttered"
"Wimp!"

Ahh, I like these little hidden details and humourous touches in the writing of the Ultima games.

U8 is the only one that I have not played for more than 10 minutes. When I first got it, my PC wouldn't run it. When I finally had a PC to run it, I was in grad school and didn't have time. When I finally had time, U9 had come out, I'd heard how bad it was (U8) and I had just finished BG1, so it went to the back of the line. Then I couldn't get U9 to play, and I figured I go back to it. I got about 10 minutes in and hated it, but kept meaning to go back to it, but I got IWD. Then BG2. Then ToB. I just never got back to it. I finally played U9 through a few years ago, and hated it so much that my desire to go back to U8 was squashed. When (if) I finished U6 P, I'm wantingoot play both parts of 7, then maybe finally head on to 8. We'll see if it happens. I want to replay the Worlds of Ultima games as well. Just never have the time!

You are making good (and very swift) progress. As you've probably noticed by now, the game is considerably shorter, and moves at a brisker pace than previous parts of the series. Also, unlike Ultima 7, you won't become a killing machine, capable of not caring about what happens around you near the end.

Blatantninja, you should give the game a chance. While the jumping is annoying (the patch makes the jumping a lot easier to handle, but it does not fix all the issues), and the world is a lot smaller, with fewer NPCs, it has decent writing, and a relatively good story. The controls takes some getting used to (they suffer from many of the same issues as the Crusader series), but once you are familiar with the quirks in the engine, they will be a lot easier to live with.

Darn, I missed that part with Torwin. Makes me wonder how many other gems like that I missed. It almost makes me want to play through the game again now.

For some reason U8 is one of my fav Ultima games, maybe because the awesome music and the setting.

Ergonpandilus said:

For some reason U8 is one of my fav Ultima games, maybe because the awesome music and the setting.

Click to expand...

This is one of a few games (Diablo is another) where the game itself is kind of meh for me but the music is fantastic and stays with me to this day more than music in many far better games has.

I'm not quite feeling the power of the music as much as I thought I would with U8 (compared to U6 and U7s at least) But maybe I've got the wrong setting toggled in DosBox's sound config - as the music does sound a bit faint and tinny at times. There have been some nice moments though, almost reminscent of the UU music when wandering around.

What I also like is the atmopsheric fx . The ambience of the log fires for instance up close is really magical and adds something to that Ultima feeling. Now that the storms are blowing around Pagan, I don't mind the odd thunder clap either - it was suitably brooding when I approached the Obsidian Fortress for the first time. When I got horribly ripped to pieces by the two Daemons in the main hall - it made me realise that I probably wasn't yet fully prepared to go in there. (reload)

As I'm slowly getting used to creating Sorcerer spells, I'm having alot of fun with all of the esoteric casting paraphenalia and taking the time to prepare them. If I'd have gotten up to this part as a teenager, I think I would have allowed myself a little quasi-demonic cackle or two.

A question to you guys who know the game well: Are there any spells that I don't need for the trials? I'm currently in the second room and trying my best to create as many useful spells as I have foci. Or maybe I should just experiment and see!

I agree with you Motoki about the Diablo music. Matt Uelman did a fine job with that soundtrack - I've used it with other games bereft of music as well for atmosphere.

If my memory serves, you don't actually need a whole lot of different spells. Of course, i suspect that I (a compulsive hoarder, who tend to shy away from using things, because "you never know when it might be useful") made things harder for myself than I should, as I ran past things that probably caused more damage than they should have, had I done things the way the devs intended. You might need something to protect yourself against fire, and something to remove fire though.

@Pessimeister - PM me with your email address and I'll email you a PDF of the U8 Pagan Official Stratgy Guide.

Can I have one, too ?

"Care you no more for your own World, Avatar?" - The Guardian, doing his best to guilt trip me into not making any more progress.

I've picked up two of the blue symbols required in the Tests - both quite difficult.
I fluked the test of flash without using any of the spell charges for it at all, just lots of avoidance and jumping…as well as using an empty potion bottle to wipe out all of the red mushrooms to make a path.

I was also very lucky with the Armour of Flames test. I only had seven charges of the spell and managed to make the return trip back with but one remaining.

In one of the other tunnels in this area, was a crazy sorcerer hiding from the Enclave and protecting one of his spells. A frantic battle ensued where he cast spell after spell at me and surprised at the sudden danger, I could naught but charge him with Deceiver. He cast a ring of fire around me and proceeded to bombard me with flame bolts. Unable to get to him and thinking I was doomed for sure, I summoned a Daemon who tore him apart. Now that was a fun fight.

I had a couple of shots at the Endure Heat test but have died a couple of jumps away from the final ledge, where a daemon awaits. I'm out of mana and health potions and are relying a little bit on regeneration to survive….

@ themadgamer - Ahh, what's this? A kindly offer of assistance! Art thou an hallucination? Or… Chuckles is that you? (PM sent - thanks!)

Overall, it's a good challenge and I'm enjoying this part of the game very much…alot of the content is excellent and it's obvious that it's where Origin poured effort in. Carthax Lake by contrast, was quite empty and didn't take half as long to explore. You can see what Richard Garriot meant when he explained his regrets that the game had to be shipped incomplete.

Enough for today!

"Hark, is that the sound of sweet lamentation I hear?" - The Guardian, excelling at being cool.

Remember that that mage that you killed had a bedroll, you can use that to get yourself into fighting condition again. And you can run past the daemon, it will probably just wobble its way into some rocks and get stuck (silly things are not very smart).

Well, in the early hours of this morning, I finally put my long arduous (and sometimes interrupted) Pagan campaign to rest by completing it.
What a great feeling! The final video left me with a nicely dark and foreboding emptiness...and thinking about the coming Ascension.

I thoroughly enjoyed everything to do with the Obsidian Fortress and Enclave.
The fight with the master was quickly over due to the bloody slashing arc of the Avatar's Deceiver axe. With all but one of the titan items collected, I teleported back and forth to the major NPCs to find the final part of the journey.

My experience with the Ethereal Plane was surprisingly smooth. I had some minor troubles with getting to Lithos and navigating in Pyros' domain, but I figured it all out with a well placed item here or there, and just following the walls.

Reading the credits and quotes section in the game had me in some hysterics.
This was also something we saw used to great effect in U7 - the Guardian's blowing up of butterflies and over the top laughter still stays with me to this day.

In reflection, I was struck with how well the game gave a feeling of actually having achieved something - as opposed to my most recent junk food diet experience with Dragon Age 2. It's a question of contrasting game design tenets, I guess. Both games being products of their age. Still, my experiences with U8 will stay with me for much longer.

Thanks for reading people! (and for the help, to those who prodded!)
I think I'll make my Ascension thread sooner rather than later!

I remember really not liking this game. It was my first and only "main series" Ultima game, before it I had only played Ultima Underworld. It was also before I really got into CRPGs as my main interest, so part of it may have been wrong expectations. I remember no liking the magic interface (tediously collecting and mixing ingredients), cursing at the jumping, not liking the setting (endless empty catacombs), not liking a certain drabness of the Graphics and music, finding the "earth titan" just weird... I think that is where I stopped.

Yes indeed. I had the same experience last year - I stopped just after picking up the Heart of the Earth and getting lost too many times in the catacombs. Then some modern game that was much more easy to digest distracted me!

I think your criticisms are perfectly valid and all too common unfortunately. It's probably why many have stayed away or won't play the game. It is a very unforgiving and at times tedious interface; it feels much less accurate than U7's was (pointing and dragging and gauging distances) and getting rudimentary tasks done often takes a prodigious amount of time.

But... I wanted to stick with it and finish the main series of Ultima's in order....and am very glad to have got this far! In short...it's a game that needed to be beaten.

Well, reading your description of your "tour" I wonder if I didn't give up too quickly... But well, I don't think I'll replay it any time soon, too many other games waiting for me.