Opinion - Bethesda: Stop Breaking your Games

I don't know how big the effect of modding is/was for Beth financially, but I know that after Oblivion and upward I would not have played their games for long without them.

Beth always only delivered the base (excluding Morrowind) which had to be filled with content, systems and bugfixes by modders. Starting with FO4 this got harder and harder to do and the game was not salvageable for me. I have zero interest in FO76 in part because of this (and that it is multiplayer).
There is still hope for TES, but not much to be honest.
 
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The vast majority of TES/FO players don't use mods - or they use mods in a limited fashion.

It doesn't take much brain power to establish this. Go look at the console vs PC sales for their games, especially in the past.

As for asking a developer to stop adding to their products because it might break user-created content - that's pretty removed from the reasonable.

It's not like TES/FO games are the only moddable games out there. Breaking user mods with game updates is 100% par for the course.

Even with simplistic mods, like the literally thousands of UI mods for games like World of Warcraft - this happens every single patch.
 
For example, maybe someone wants a game structured like Skyrim, but with souls-like combat. There are mods for that. Or they want Skyrim with hard core survival elements. There are mods for that.

Mods can not do that.

DS combat relies on elements that cannot be ported to Skyrim.

Survival is a gigantic issue: it demands a management of resources on a global scale to introduce elements of scarcity.
Bethesda tried to deliver this in Skyrim, they failed. Mods will not fill the gap.
 
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Mods can not do that.

DS combat relies on elements that cannot be ported to Skyrim.

Survival is a gigantic issue: it demands a management of resources on a global scale to introduce elements of scarcity.
Bethesda tried to deliver this in Skyrim, they failed. Mods will not fill the gap.

You obviously never modded Skyrim:

&
 
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The vast majority of TES/FO players don't use mods - or they use mods in a limited fashion.

It doesn't take much brain power to establish this. Go look at the console vs PC sales for their games, especially in the past.

Skyrim HD - 2K Textures 22.3 m of downloads
SkyUI - 19.9 m of downloads
etc..

And that is just nexusmods, without any steam Workshop

Console/PC: Bethesda never published any numbers. The only number comes from Howard saying than they sold in total 30M of copies.

So no, there is not a Console market wolfing the PC market on Bethesda games.
 
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As for asking a developer to stop adding to their products because it might break user-created content - that's pretty removed from the reasonable.
It's a bit more complicated than that. The last content DLC for Fallout 4 hit in August 2016, and the game was considered feature-complete then. The free HD texture DLC came in February 2017. At this point, the code base of the game was considered stable, and the chance of any new patches that would break mods was considered more or less gone.

On August 29 2017, Bethesda opened the Creation Club for Fallout 4. Since then, they have changed the exe of the game and broken mods once a month, or even twice if there's some major bug introduced. All mods that fundamentally change the gameplay break every time. That's one reason for the widespread disdain for the Creation Club. Even if you don't use it, it has the potential to make your game difficult.
 
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You obviously never modded Skyrim:

Never written that mods did not exist.

Skipping the first one as it is fundamentally gameplay related.


The second: surviving to exposure to cold weather is different from living in a cold weather.

People who live in a cold weather do not die from cold weather. People who survive might.

Skyrim is covered with woods, plenty of areas to settle in, the access to the environment is unrestricted, magic, and people who live in the same cold conditions. And the PC is destined to end rich, very rich.

The mod adds layers that are purposed to get rid of. Players play in order to return to the state they play when they play without that mod.
 
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I can't comprehend what you're on about. If I understand correctly, your point is that there are towns in Skyrim that are cozy and warm and that there is no need to go into the wild because you'll end up owning a house in one/all of the towns. And then what? Just sit in your house all day and enjoy the sight of your fireplace? I know you like streams, but some of us actually enjoy playing the game. And planning your trek to an ancient ruin in the north part of Skyrim, which is covered in ice, deciding what to bring (because you lowered carry weight to a realistic level), where on the way there to spend the night if the trek is too long, who to bring with you is very exciting to me and to a lot of other players, too. And vanilla Skyrim doesn't have that. Even with their paid mod it's nowhere near modded experience.
 
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Skyrim HD - 2K Textures 22.3 m of downloads
SkyUI - 19.9 m of downloads
etc..

And that is just nexusmods, without any steam Workshop

Console/PC: Bethesda never published any numbers. The only number comes from Howard saying than they sold in total 30M of copies.

So no, there is not a Console market wolfing the PC market on Bethesda games.

If you want to tell yourself that Skyrim sold more copies on PC than all the consoles combined - then go right ahead.

I hope you understand what that does to the validity of your position, though.
 
It's a bit more complicated than that. The last content DLC for Fallout 4 hit in August 2016, and the game was considered feature-complete then. The free HD texture DLC came in February 2017. At this point, the code base of the game was considered stable, and the chance of any new patches that would break mods was considered more or less gone.

On August 29 2017, Bethesda opened the Creation Club for Fallout 4. Since then, they have changed the exe of the game and broken mods once a month, or even twice if there's some major bug introduced. All mods that fundamentally change the gameplay break every time. That's one reason for the widespread disdain for the Creation Club. Even if you don't use it, it has the potential to make your game difficult.

They've released patches in between the DLCs - and they're still doing it. They did it before Creation Club - and they've done it after Creation Club.

They always broke mods with updates (DLC or not) - and that's been the case since Morrowind.

I know people think they deserve free stuff at all times because they once got it, but I don't really see why being unreasonable in that way needs to translate into being unreasonable about what it means to patch your software.

Again, this is true for all moddable games. In my experience, it's relatively rare to get any kind of software update to a moddable game and it DOESN'T break a few mods.

I use a lot of mods for a lot of games, so I know what I'm talking about.

It's annoying - but it's nearly impossible to avoid.
 
They've released patches in between the DLCs - and they're still doing it. They did it before Creation Club - and they've done it after Creation Club.
You are just contrarian now. There were no Fallout 4 patches between the last DLC and the introduction of the Creation Club. This game had already its quiet patch-free time. All new patches are related to Creation Club releases. Bugs are not fixed. It's just annoying.

Pointing out that it's their game as if anyone didn't know that is supposed to tell us what exactly? It's still annoying that these constant "patches" (i.e. store updates) for a feature hardly anyone wants are pushed out.
 
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You are just contrarian now. There were no Fallout 4 patches between the last DLC and the introduction of the Creation Club. All new patches are related to Creation Club releases. Bugs are not fixed. It's just annoying.

Pointing out that it's their game as if anyone didn't know that is supposed to tell us what exactly? It's still annoying that these constant patches for a feature hardly anyone wants are pushed out.

What? I have Fallout 4 installed and have received several patches since the last DLC - and those patches have included fixes and optimizations that are non-CC related.

Also, Creation Club is now integrated into their games - so obviously any update has the potential to mess with the code.

But I get it. It was ok for them to break mods before Creation Club - but it's not ok now, because it's annoying.

Sure, whatever.
 
I can't comprehend what you're on about. If I understand correctly, your point is that there are towns in Skyrim that are cozy and warm and that there is no need to go into the wild because you'll end up owning a house in one/all of the towns.
Going in the wild is not enough to emulate a survival situation. As an evidence, vanilla Skyrim allows going in the wild.
And then what? Just sit in your house all day and enjoy the sight of your fireplace?
No. It means having access to means and resources to live and not survive in a cold environment.
I know you like streams, but some of us actually enjoy playing the game.
No.
And planning your trek to an ancient ruin in the north part of Skyrim, which is covered in ice, deciding what to bring (because you lowered carry weight to a realistic level), where on the way there to spend the night if the trek is too long, who to bring with you is very exciting to me and to a lot of other players, too.
A mod enabling pack mules would solve that. Even better, since it is a magical world, could include a quest for a magical pack mule that comes with a magical aura to offset the exposure effects. Mods are magic, simply magic.
And vanilla Skyrim doesn't have that. Even with their paid mod it's nowhere near modded experience.

A good thing since that mod does not provide anything like survival. At least, Skyrim vanilla is supposed to be about things like exploration which it delivers.
 
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If you want to tell yourself that Skyrim sold more copies on PC than all the consoles combined - then go right ahead.

I hope you understand what that does to the validity of your position, though.

I give you numbers anyone can check you give me the bullshit they taught you at that Bethesda cheerleader school. You just have been telling us BS upon BS on those games as if we did not know them as much than you to say the least.

Skyrim Ultimate edition in 2016 was launched with bugs already present in the first edition of the game in 2011. Bugs corrected in some mods weeks after the launch.
That says everything about that company.
 
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If you want to tell yourself that Skyrim sold more copies on PC than all the consoles combined - then go right ahead.
I don't think anyone said that.

Data from 2016, Skyrim sold 30M copies total:
http://www.loadthegame.com/2016/11/22/skyrim-sells-over-30-million-units-best-selling-bethesda-game/

SteamSpy estimated PC copies at cca10M 3 years ago so it should be higher today:
http://www.upcomingtechnology.org/its-not-even-funny-how-badly-reported-pc-game-sales-are/

But it's not 15+M definetly which would mean half of sales. Because from data about 10 alltime best selling games on steam (this year) the 10th game on the list did not reach 15M and Skyrim is not on that list at all:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/882708/all-time-best-selling-games-steam/
 
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Going in the wild is not enough to emulate a survival situation. As an evidence, vanilla Skyrim allows going in the wild.

It does, but it's exactly the same as staying in the town; The only difference is that in the wild you might get attacked by a variety of monsters, while in a town it is reserved to vampires and cultists. With a couple of mods it differs wildly (pun intended): food is scarce, warmth is scarce, and if you fall into the river while its -20C outside you better build a campfire.

No. It means having access to means and resources to live and not survive in a cold environment.

But not everything is a town. There is wilderness. There are ice covered mountains. And most dungeons, the bread and butter of Skyrim, are in these environments.


You seem oddly obsessed with them.

A mod enabling pack mules would solve that. Even better, since it is a magical world, could include a quest for a magical pack mule that comes with a magical aura to offset the exposure effects. Mods are magic, simply magic.

A mod could do that, and does that. If someone wants to play with that they can. They can't in vanilla, though.

A good thing since that mod does not provide anything like survival. At least, Skyrim vanilla is supposed to be about things like exploration which it delivers.

That mod, combined with a couple of other mods, provides the same, or better experience (although sometimes a bit clunky, it is a mod after all) than survival games on the market. If you're arguing that it's nothing like real life survival, well, duh, it's a video game. None of them provide a real life-like experience. Not even vanilla Skyrim delivers exploration like in real life. And that's OK.

You can talk about what it's supposed to be and who it's supposed to be for all day, but the fact is that Skyrim IS a modding platform. If someone likes Skyrim vanilla, it's for them; if someone likes Skyrim modded it's for them; if someone doesn't like Skyrim vanilla, but likes it modded, it's for them; if someone likes neither vanilla nor modded Skyrim then it's not for them.
 
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There is enough food to feed a population of NPCs. There is no scarcity of food.
The PC is destined to be a home owner, land owner and rich.

That mod adds layers to increase the variety of items to consume.
Nothing to do with survival.

Etc

A better experience in survival than products that do not deliver a survival experience. It means nothing.

And the comment was that Bethesda did not make money from mods but from players who are so self centered they can not accept a mass consumption item was not designed to fulfill their tastes.

As shown by the example, you can stack mods (one for exposure introduction, another for exposure removal) to fall back on the vanilla experience.
 
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But it was designed for them. It was designed to be mod friendly, modding tools were released, etc. They knew full well some people would not like the base game, but will love mods. It's not like it was their first game. It's not like mods just happened to them. I believe it was even marketed as mod friendly, but I can't really remember. And even if it wasn't, and I hate repeating myself, it is the biggest modding platform to date. It is The Product for people who want to get into modding, even if they don't necessarily like TES games.

Edit: This was written seven years ago, before Skyrim launched.
 
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And the comment was that Bethesda did not make money from mods but from players who are so self centered they can not accept a mass consumption item was not designed to fulfill their tastes
If it means what I think it means, that's one of the dumbest comments I've heard in a while from you Chien.
 
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I just want to tip my hat to Dart&Chien, the tireless defenders of Bethesda, that despite all their efforts, keeps screwing up and making their job harder and harder.
Meanwhile we've learned after nylon bags incident, they're also now leaking your private information.
 
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