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March 13th, 2019, 17:07
Best Game Ever is coming to Steam: Dwarf Fortress

I will unsee any comment criticizing me bestowing this title
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March 13th, 2019, 18:10
Also just read the news on PCGamer and headed over to RPG watch to see if there is a thread already

After having played rimworld I am a bit spoiled though. Even if they improve the graphics, as long as the controls suck that bad, it's hard to recommend to a wide range of people. Seems they are thinking about it though.
https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortre…d-mod-support/
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March 13th, 2019, 18:13
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
it's hard to recommend to a wide range of people.
It's not. Just say the magic words: "procedurally generated".
I'm with the minority that ain't buying such stuff.
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March 13th, 2019, 18:19
Procedurally generated is awesome as you can experience stuff nobody has ever experienced before.

But I can definitely understand why people have a negative perception, as in many games it's resulting in the opposite where everything, even within a single game is always looking the same.

That said, I think it's very different between genres. Dwarf Fortress is now primarily a survival citybuilder and not an RPG which profits from hand crafted quests.
The whole concept of the game wouldn't work if it was static.
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March 13th, 2019, 18:25
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Procedurally generated is awesome as you can experience stuff nobody has ever experienced before.
I could go to junkyard and start digging for experience of nobody before me.
I just don't need and don't have time for that experience.
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March 13th, 2019, 18:33
But for a city builder: Would you rather have
1. A procedurally generated map with random events happening

2. A selection of fixed Scenario maps. In scenario 1,
in year 1 a fire will break out
in year 2 it will be a dry period and your people starve
in year 3 you are attacked by goblins.
after year 4 the game will end, as it wasnt designed to last longer.
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March 13th, 2019, 19:06
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Also just read the news on PCGamer and headed over to RPG watch to see if there is a thread already

After having played rimworld I am a bit spoiled though. Even if they improve the graphics, as long as the controls suck that bad, it's hard to recommend to a wide range of people. Seems they are thinking about it though.
https://www.pcgamer.com/dwarf-fortre…d-mod-support/
Rimworld is a great game. I would not discuss this at all. It exchanged however options and possibilities for a more easy to use UI.
There are already many mods available to make DF more candy to the eye and more friendly for the user. There are also good videos to start playing without too much a steep learning curve.
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March 13th, 2019, 19:10
I remember that back when I played it I basically had to use a hack called "dwarf therapist" which read out the memory, allowed to assign your dwarves direct orders without going through the interface, and then inject this back into the memory.

Something like this works 100% identical in both games.
But while it's a pita to control in DF, it's extremely easy in Rimworld.
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March 13th, 2019, 21:45
Dwarf Therapist is still a mandatory tool as are Legend extractors or other tools. It comes with the territory of managing a 200 people fortress + pets + chattel + invaders and other forgotten beasts over years and years.
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March 13th, 2019, 21:49
Yeah, just saying that this isn't a good thing. If these tools are "mandatory" there are obviously better ways for Dwarf Fortress to implement an interface.
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March 14th, 2019, 13:58
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
But I can definitely understand why people have a negative perception, as in many games it's resulting in the opposite where everything, even within a single game is always looking the same.
As desired by players.

Procedural generation is flawed by design: it is set to renew the decision making pattern. That is a measure of its quality: how well it renews decisions to be made.

Usually, it happens by changing starting conditions and/or making them evolve.

This is when it turns out flawed for players: it takes to evaluate conditions and then plan accordingly.
Nothing stellar but players reject that.

They come with a preplanned course of action and expect it to work no matter the conditions.

Players do not want to renew their decision pattern, they desire something that works no matter their decisions.

So, end of the day, it has to look all the same. Or this desire is not satisfied.

The better a procedural generation is at renewing patterns, the more it is loathed on by players.
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March 14th, 2019, 14:28
Just because a lot of games user crappy procedural algorithms doens't mean all games use crappy procedural algorithsm. Don't be so ignorant in your comments.

Originally Posted by joxer View Post
I could go to junkyard and start digging for experience of nobody before me.
I just don't need and don't have time for that experience.
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March 14th, 2019, 18:21
Originally Posted by ChienAboyeur View Post
As desired by players.

Procedural generation is flawed by design: it is set to renew the decision making pattern. That is a measure of its quality: how well it renews decisions to be made.

Usually, it happens by changing starting conditions and/or making them evolve.

This is when it turns out flawed for players: it takes to evaluate conditions and then plan accordingly.
Nothing stellar but players reject that.
Procedural generation comes to mind when I read you. I can understand the "flawed by design".

In the case of DF it is not that bad, it is subtle and complex enough to give you either a totally random world or one where you get to decide nearly everything but the precise location of the settlements.
There is a Cookbook thread dedicated to just that where people can request special set of parameters to generate specific worlds.
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March 14th, 2019, 19:04
That proves the existence of a mind.
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April 6th, 2019, 02:35
Dwarf Fortress Vampire Computers article on PC Gamer.
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The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common: instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views….
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