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November 10th, 2017, 23:43
Originally Posted by RPGFool View Post
@Fluent & @Damian

It doesn't have to be complicated or result in changing the game in any way for PB experienced players. For the casual ("normal") players, just start them out at higher attributes and skills (scale the remaining attributes to 100), without telling them. Keep everything else the same. Change nothing for players who choose "PB Traditional Player".

Viola!. Outer skin is tenderized for novices -- but same for PB Traditional players.

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I have no problem with that, but keep that for "Story mode". I believe most Elex players play it at "normal" and wouldnt want that messed with.
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November 11th, 2017, 00:19
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
I have no problem with that, but keep that for "Story mode". I believe most Elex players play it at "normal" and wouldnt want that messed with.
The goal would be to seduce casual players to try the game and seduce "professional" reviewers into giving the game a fair run through so they could discover the rich game insides. Traditional PB players like those here and at other conventional RPG sites know they are different (more experienced) than "normal", inexperienced rpg players. Just word the "Traditional PB Player" definition to give a nod in the direction of "you're a special, experienced rpg player", I doubt traditional PB players would object or opt out given the right wording.

Regards.

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November 11th, 2017, 00:23
Idiot reviewers. One of few games which lack the level scaling I would rather see absent from all games, and they bash Elex for it? Now I have to buy the game at full price, I have to support PB in this… (Won't have time to play it for quite some time so figured I could wait. )
Last edited by TomRon; November 11th, 2017 at 11:08.
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November 11th, 2017, 00:44
Yes, I think people like myself who have played all the PB games, several more than once, knowing what to expect makes playing Elex much easier. We 'get' the PB style. For others, it's a shock to their system and IMHO one that they need!!
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November 11th, 2017, 02:15
@RPGFool , Yeah, I appreciate your idea, and I used to think EXACTLY like you did regarding that. However, over time and thinking about it more, I've decided that education is a larger part of the answer, not JUST Story Mode or difficulty levels.

While there is definitely room for Story Mode in RPGs (no argument there, it can be a good thing for certain types of players), I think better education combined with perhaps the Story Mode would do wonders as well. That way at least a new player has a fighting chance of understanding the game's mechanics and style, not just jumping right into Story Mode and missing what could be a really enlightening experience with a new design they've never experienced before.

If the education doesn't work and they still hate it yet want to play, they can switch to Story Mode. But I think an attempt should be made by PB in the game to help new players understand the workings of the game better. How the world is built, what to expect, etc..

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November 11th, 2017, 02:15
I think the problem is not really that Elex was some way extremly "punishing." IMHO it like all pbs games (aside gothic 1 which was extremly difficult in the begining due to clunky controls) plays fairly. The world is just a rough place and the game expects player to think a little before doing something:

-How do I overcome this obstacle, solve this quest, beat this enemy
-How do i plan my character most effectively
-What are the potential dangers if I choose this dialog option or go in this direction
-Man that path looks and feels dangerous…hmmh I better move slowly and pay attention to my surroundings.
-What is the most optimal escape route if things get hairy?
-How can I use the items I have in my inventory to even the odds?
-etc

That is basic stuff which almost anyone can figure it out. Pbs are not asking player to solve world hunger. Christ… it just pains me so much how nowdays everything is expected to be spoonfed. There are already difficulty settings in place. How much more can one ask from developer before this begins watering down their game design?

The problem is that it feels so different compared to most other games which make sure that the player gets proper egoboost right from the begining. Pbs have never cared much about that kind of stuff. They basicly throw player in to rough world and say: "Survive".

However what RPGFOOL is saying is not entirely wrong either. From a business perspective I quess it could make sense to ease the begining a bit in the lowest difficulty setting perhaps to seduce newcomers and make sure even pc-gamer reviewer can beat the game.

I just feel so annoyed how little players nowdays are willing to study the game they're playing. I'm not the most hard core player out there, I know games are just for fun, but a big draw of playing videogames for me atleast has always been figuring them out. Learning to play new game and mastering its systems etc. That is FUN.

*sigh* I know times have changed. I've gotten the memo of it. Instant glorfication is the new buzzword. I need to take part in the retraining camp.

ps. sorry about the Wall of text. I needed to let go some steam.
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November 11th, 2017, 02:17
Originally Posted by Dez View Post
I think the problem is not really that Elex was some way extremly "punishing." IMHO it like all pbs games (aside gothic 1 which was extremly difficult in the begining due to clunky controls) plays fairly. The world is just a rough place and the game expects player to think a little before doing something:

-How do I overcome this obstacle, solve this quest, beat this enemy
-How do i plan my character most effectively
-What are the potential dangers if I choose this dialog option or go in this direction
-Man that path looks and feels dangerous…hmmh I better move slowly and pay attentio to my surroundings.
-What is the most optimal escape route if things get hairy?
-How can I use the items I have in my inventory to even the odds?
-etc

That is basic stuff which almost anyone can figure it out. Pbs are not asking player to solve world hunger. Christ… it just pains me so much how nowdays everything is expected to spoonfed. There are already difficulty settings in place. How much more can one ask from developer before this begins watering down their game design?

The problem is that it feels so different compared to most other games which make sure that the player gets proper egoboost right from the begining. Pbs have never cared much about that kind of stuff. They basicly throw player in to rough world and say: "Survive".

However what RPGFOOL is saying is not entirely wrong either. From a business perspective I quess it could make sense to ease the begining a bit in the lowest difficulty setting perhaps to seduce newcomers and make sure even pc-gamer reviewer can beat the game.

I just feel so annoyed how little players nowdays are willing to study the game they're playing. I'm not the most hard core player out there, I know games are just for fun, but a big draw of playing videogames for me atleast has always been figuring them out. Learning to play new game and mastering its systems etc. That is FUN.

*sigh* I know times have changed. I've gotten the memo of it. Instant glorfication is the new buzzword. I need to take part in the retraining camp.

ps. sorry about the Wall of text. I needed to let go some steam.
Hey man, I'm with you! Please read my "solutions" and see if you agree.

Although I will stay far, far away from the retraining camp, thank you.

Oh, I think the part you mention about it being so different is an important one, too, because gamers likely have a certain idea of how it SHOULD play when they go in. I.e., the game is a 3rd person action RPG, open-world, you fight monsters, do quests, okay, good, got it! Then they go in and die in the tutorial.

So that is what leads me to believe that better in-game tutorials could go a long way to at least give newbies a chance to possibly enjoy the game, rather than it becoming a quick refund and negative review…

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November 11th, 2017, 05:48
Just to clarify. I like ELEX. It's a great game.

But many mainstream reviewers and players don't or can't see that. This game took more time and likely used more expensive technology compared to prior PB games. If PB and THQ Nordic don't make a reasonable profit… it could be a huge setback or even the end for PB.

Getting angry at players and consumers won't help. Things are as they are. The market is as it is. I hope PB and THQ Nordic have made and are making a fair profit… But the numbers don't look good at this point. It's almost a Darwin type of thing. Evolve or disappear.

I've suggested inexpensive changes that could help in the future and wouldn't mean any changes for current PB supporters. Alternatives are much more expensive and time consuming, and could mean major changes for future PB games.

What the heck. I only want PB to survive to make another great game…

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November 11th, 2017, 05:59
Originally Posted by RPGFool View Post
Just to clarify. I like ELEX. It's a great game.

But many mainstream reviewers and players don't or can't see that. This game took more time and likely used more expensive technology compared to prior PB games. If PB and THQ Nordic don't make a reasonable profit… it could be a huge setback or even the end for PB.

Getting angry at players and consumers won't help. Things are as they are. The market is as it is. I hope PB and THQ Nordic have made and are making a fair profit… But the numbers don't look good at this point. It's almost a Darwin type of thing. Evolve or disappear.

I've suggested inexpensive changes that could help in the future and wouldn't mean any changes for current PB supporters. Alternatives are much more expensive and time consuming, and could mean major changes for future PB games.

What the heck. I only want PB to survive to make another great game…

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You havent made a real case why Elex's numbers arent good. All the sales so far have been at full price and already it is doing better than Risen 3. It will sell even more when they drop the price down to $20 later like they did with Risen 3.
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November 11th, 2017, 06:10
Originally Posted by RPGFool View Post
Just to clarify. I like ELEX. It's a great game.

But many mainstream reviewers and players don't or can't see that. This game took more time and likely used more expensive technology compared to prior PB games. If PB and THQ Nordic don't make a reasonable profit… it could be a huge setback or even the end for PB.

Getting angry at players and consumers won't help. Things are as they are. The market is as it is. I hope PB and THQ Nordic have made and are making a fair profit… But the numbers don't look good at this point. It's almost a Darwin type of thing. Evolve or disappear.

I've suggested inexpensive changes that could help in the future and wouldn't mean any changes for current PB supporters. Alternatives are much more expensive and time consuming, and could mean major changes for future PB games.

What the heck. I only want PB to survive to make another great game…

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Not sure who you're talking to here. For the record I'm not angry at reviewers. I want them to be able to enjoy it just the same as we do. I just disagree that making the intro easier would be a great option, as I've explained.

I also don't think my solutions would cost a lot. An in-game Codex of information and much better, more in-your-face tutorials at the start of the game. And those could be switched off in the settings menu for experienced players. But the tutorials would explain a lot more of the game from the start.

I don't see either of those as high cost options.

Also, ELEX 2 is already confirmed, so that tells me that THQNordiq and PB must be doing well. THQNordic probably knows that they have a serious gem on their hands here. Either way, for a sequel to be confirmed before the original even releases is a very promising thing.

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November 11th, 2017, 06:10
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
You havent made a real case why Elex's numbers arent good. All the sales so far have been at full price and already it is doing better than Risen 3. It will sell even more when they drop the price down to $20 later like they did with Risen 3.
Risen 3 was a good game. But not comparable in size or scope to ELEX.

Sales at this point are at best 300-350k; more likely in the 250k range. Sure they can cut price to $20. But there ain't a lot of profit at $20 a pop. <shrug>

You want another Risen 2 or 3. No problem. Those weren't bad games… But they weren't ELEX either.

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November 11th, 2017, 06:18
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post

ELEX 2 is already confirmed, so that tells me that THQNordiq and PB must be doing well. THQNordic probably knows that they have a serious gem on their hands here. Either way, for a sequel to be confirmed before the original even releases is a very promising thing.
At time ELEX2 was confirmed, ELEX hadn't yet hit market. Plans change due to poor sales. That's the way things are. Businesses don't keep investing in projects that aren't generating a decent return.

Hope I'm wrong. But I fear this is a classic case of "You don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows…"

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November 11th, 2017, 06:24
Originally Posted by RPGFool View Post
Risen 3 was a good game. But not comparable in size or scope to ELEX.

Sales at this point are at best 300-350k; more likely in the 250k range. Sure they can cut price to $20. But there ain't a lot of profit at $20 a pop. <shrug>

You want another Risen 2 or 3. No problem. Those weren't bad games… But they weren't ELEX either.

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Where are you getting your numbers from? How are you making the assertion that Steam and GoG make up the majority of sales?
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November 11th, 2017, 06:25
I can't even find real budget numbers for ELEX. What are you basing any of this on, @RPGFool?

Also, Piranha Bytes has lasted for 20 years now. I'm sure they'll be fine.

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November 11th, 2017, 06:35
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Where are you getting your numbers from? How are you making the assertion that Steam and GoG make up the majority of sales?
Steamspy ELEX -- "Owners: 113,600 ± 10,161". GOG no data but generally not as popular as Steam. Sales probably less than, but possibly slightly better than Steam. That gets us up to 200-250k sales.

Console reviews are horrible… 56 on Metacritic for PS4 -- 62 on Metacritic for XBox One. Unlikely to be good sales numbers there…

You seem to follow a lot of popular sites. Do you have any data to the contrary?

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November 11th, 2017, 06:43
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
I can't even find real budget numbers for ELEX. What are you basing any of this on, @RPGFool?

Also, Piranha Bytes has lasted for 20 years now. I'm sure they'll be fine.
It shouldnt be too much more than the cost of Risen 3 if it indeed costs more at all. Risen 3 took 3 an a bit years to make and Elex took 2 and a bit. Piranha Bytes also kept their team size really small, their team size for Elex was 29 people IIRC. Compare that to Witcher 3 that had 240 people working over at about 4 years costing 81million to make.

If we assume each developer is paid the same and they do 60 hour weeks, it works out to 27 dollars an hour. And apply the same rate to Elex and multiply by 2years and 3 months, we get just under $200k. If that is really how much they spent to make Elex, that is an amazing feat, shame that they cant say anything about it.
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November 11th, 2017, 06:45
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
It shouldnt be too much more than the cost of Risen 3 if it indeed costs more at all. Risen 3 took 3 an a bit years to make and Elex took 2 and a bit. Piranha Bytes also kept their team size really small, their team size for Elex was 29 people IIRC. Compare that to Witcher 3 that had 240 people working over at about 4 years costing 81million to make.

If we assume each developer is paid the same and they do 60 hour weeks, it works out to 27 dollars an hour. And apply the same rate to Elex and multiply by 2years and 3 months, we get just under $200k. If that is really how much they spent to make Elex, that is an amazing feat, shame that they cant say anything about it.
Whoa.

Don't you have to multiply that number by 29, though?

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November 11th, 2017, 06:50
Originally Posted by RPGFool View Post
Steamspy ELEX -- "Owners: 113,600 ± 10,161". GOG no data but generally not as popular as Steam. Sales probably less than, but possibly slightly better than Steam. That gets us up to 200-250k sales.

Console reviews are horrible… 56 on Metacritic for PS4 -- 62 on Metacritic for XBox One. Unlikely to be good sales numbers there…

You seem to follow a lot of popular sites. Do you have any data to the contrary?

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I dont have risen numbers yet, but I do have risen 3 numbers for physical sales so we can compare a little.
PS3 sold 80k, 3609 sold 60k and windows sold 90k.

It averaged 36 on PS3, 44 on 360 and 65 for windows on metacritic.

If there is a correlation between review scores and sales, Elex should sell better on those than Risen on the PS3, 360 and Windows for physical sales.
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November 11th, 2017, 06:52
Originally Posted by Fluent View Post
Whoa.

Don't you have to multiply that number by 29, though?
Yes, I miscalculated, it comes out to about 5.5 million. Still a big feat imo. That's not even B tier dev costs.
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November 11th, 2017, 06:52
Originally Posted by Damian View Post
Yes, I miscalculation, it comes out to about 5.5 million. Still a big feat imo. That's not even B tier dev costs.
Yup, definitely a feat. Thanks for the math.

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