Dragon Age 4 - Story and Character focused

My wife works with a woman and her husband works on the Dragon Age games. When I was told this, I laughed, shook my head ruefully, and walked away. Games, hah!

I liked all Dragon Age games so far (also all Mass Effect games) so as far as I'm concerned, bring it on!

I don't necessarily have a problem with Bioware going more mainstream - it's probably hard to avoid as budgets and expectations grow. I don't dislike many of their games, but it's more the EA-influenced direction of travel that concerns me; the move towards a more online team style of game, all the better to monetise in dubious ways.

What I take as somewhat positive, is that marketing people clearly seem to be recognising the perception of a shift in that direction as a problem. I think that's part of the reason for this announcement when the marketing drive would usually be focused on the next big thing, Anthem, which is not attracting the sort of buzz they want to see.

I'm not sure how much more mainstream Bioware can go.

That's kind what of I'm getting at - I don't really mind them being very mainstream in their approach. As in, a more streamlined/dumbed-down style of game, but with very high production values. I think there's a place for that, particularly as other companies are doing a pretty good job of filling the void of proper RPGs.

I'd just be sad to see them go "Full EA", such that they'd be of no interest to me whatsoever. I realise that for many people they're already there.

The "big 3" AAA RPG developers are all entirely mainstream.

CDPR, Bethsoft and Bioware.

To me, the key is to enjoy what's left to enjoy about these games according to our preferences.

CDPR = Story and production values.
Bethsoft = Freeform exploration and perpetual progression.
Bioware = Party-based gameplay and melodrama.

That's about it, really.

Instead of crying about them being lost to the mainstream in the pursuit of wealth, we could celebrate all the kickstarter/indie RPGs popping up all over the place.

Not sure why Bioware is so often the primary target and why CDPR is so often excused for doing extremely similar things in terms of dumbing down and pursuing the wide audience - but to each his own.

Only Bethsoft seems to have a somewhat balanced measure of criticism and praise around here

If you think EA is actually controlling the finer points of game development, you don't understand how these suits operate. They don't know shit about game design or mechanics. As in, absolutely nothing at all.

All they understand is what seems to be selling for the moment - and that's what they base their overall directives on.

Typically, developers are relatively free to pursue what they want to pursue in terms of story, design and so forth - so long as they stay WITHIN the overall directive.

Some developers can develop great and compelling games even with those restrictions - and that's about how realistic and passionate they are.

Some people can achieve greatness within a suit-built cage. I don't know how - because I certainly couldn't - but some people can work wonders with whatever they're given.

It's also very much about how business and suit-savvy the lead guy/girl is. Some are extremely adept at convincing the suits that what's being made will make a lot of money - even if it's a complete fabrication.

So many factors go into making a successful game - not to mention a GOOD successful game.

You can't necessarily tell what a developer is like - because it tends to shift and change from project to project. Especially with a company like Bioware - because the teams are so big. They could potentially shift half the key people around from the last project - and we'd have to know a lot more about the people to make educated guesses about what DA4 will be like.

I expect the directive will be similar to DA:I. Apart from being a "live game" - I'm guessing the overt control from EA will be relatively minimal. They just want to see a pretty game that doesn't offend the wide audience - so they can monetize it to the maximum effect.

Clearly, Anthem is the "great new hope" for EA execs. I doubt DA4 matters much at all as long as Anthem is in development. That actually means there's a tiny chance DA4 might be special and more akin to what we would all prefer - because a bold and talented lead might take advantage of having less attention from EA. They could go ahead and develop a deep and challenging game under their noses

But that's probably not going to happen. Again, I expect a more or less by-the-books modern Bioware game - which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Maybe once it's released - they will start paying closer attention to DA4 - and maybe some random suit will start making stupid decisions because of whatever happens with Anthem.

But we have no way of knowing at this time.

NewDArt said:

Not sure why Bioware is so often the primary target and why CDPR is so often excused for doing extremely similar things in terms of dumbing down and pursuing the wide audience - but to each his own.

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Most likely, the high level of criticism of BioWare (relative to CDPR) has nothing to do with any of that, and more to do with the fact that CDPR's games are just lightyears higher overall quality than anything BioWare's done this decade. That allows for a lot to be forgiven. One other thing that comes to mind is that CDPR doesn't go out of their way to inject SJW politics into their games, which many do appreciate.

Stingray said:

Most likely, the high level of criticism of BioWare (relative to CDPR) has nothing to do with any of that, and more to do with the fact that CDPR's games are just lightyears higher overall quality than anything BioWare's done this decade. That allows for a lot to be forgiven. One other thing that comes to mind is that CDPR doesn't go out of their way to inject SJW politics into their games, which many do appreciate.

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I'm not talking about what people forgive based on personal preferences, but about people making the mainstream approach into something worse when Bioware is doing it.

But you're probably right - it's about "forgiveness" and emotional investment more than a detached and neutral observation. Gamers get so riled up sometimes.

I understand that a lot of people think CDPR makes better games. That's ok with me.

Personally, I prefer Bioware games in terms of gameplay and CDPR games in terms of story.

Since I'm more into gameplay than story overall, I prefer Bioware games overall.

Though, to be fair - I think CDPR does story better than Bioware does gameplay - so there's that aspect of it, too.

But I think there are good and bad parts about both developers.

Then again, I never really bought the whole "for the consumer" shtick CDPR is using as their primary marketing tactic. I'm not that gullible

This seems like marketing speak for "Our Skyrim Age: Inquisition attempt didn't work out too well, so we're going to focus on what's trending in party-based RPGs right now, story + characters."

Is that too cynical? Maybe.

Random side-note but I think there is an area missing in modern party-based RPGs. I half-joke about story + characters trending but it's true, where most party-based RPGs will have 6-8 characters only, each with tons of exposition, dialogue and lore for each.

I would like to see an alternate view of that approach. Give me 20 optional characters each with half the story and dialogue of the first example, with some a bit more fleshed out than others, but give me gameplay reasons to experiment and have each companion with me as I see fit. To me, that gives a more gameplay feel to the game and makes building unique parties more interesting. It creates a more "emergent" gameplay thing, where each player tells their own story as well (use of imagination is encouraged + each player would be much more likely to use unique combinations of party members, creating interesting banter situations and more unique playthroughs.) And yes, take some of those dialogue resources saved from cutting back the total content to create banter between all of the different characters, etc..

I feel like that version of party-based RPG is not represented right now in these types of RPGs. And while I understand that story + characters sells well, I think there's room for another approach. Just my 2.

Fluent said:

This seems like marketing speak for "Our Skyrim Age: Inquisition attempt didn't work out too well, so we're going to focus on what's trending in party-based RPGs right now, story + characters."

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This is a trend now ? Oh, how dare they !
Action is so much more successful !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111eleven

NewDArt said:

Not sure why Bioware is so often the primary target and why CDPR is so often excused for doing extremely similar things in terms of dumbing down and pursuing the wide audience - but to each his own.

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Perhaps because CDP has only done that to any significant degree with their latest game while Bioware has been doing it for over a decade now?

You would think people would be used to Bioware being completely mainstream by now, but apparently there's still that naive lingering hope that they could possibly make something like they used to.

That said, I don't think CDP is as mainstream as Bioware yet, and I pray their games don't ever become as boring and repetitive as Bioware's have.

JDR13 said:

Perhaps because CDP has only done that to any significant degree with their latest game while Bioware has been doing it for over a decade now?

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Maybe that's a factor. But I think most people didn't really notice that part of Witcher 3 because the presentation and story are so strong.

You would think people would be used to Bioware being completely mainstream by now, but apparently there's still that naive lingering hope that they could possibly make something like they used to.

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Yeah, it's like people just can't let it go. Bioware has been mainstream since BEFORE the EA takeover.

Heck, even my favorite Bioware game KotOR was mainstream for its time. I clearly remember being pissed at a bunch of console concessions, for instance.

That said, I don't think CDP is as mainstream as Bioware yet, and I pray their games don't ever become as boring and repetitive as Bioware's have.

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I guess that depends on what you mean by mainstream.

I suppose there's no set-in-stone definition except that mainstream means wide appeal or mass market appeal.

Personally, I think Dragon Age Inquisition on Hard was much more challenging than Witcher on Death March - but that's just one way of being "less mainstream".

On the other hand, I found Witcher 3 had a much more mature narrative with characters that were compelling, where DAI had an abundance of nauseating politically correct characters.

So, I guess it's sort of a toss-up.

Objectively, I think Witcher 3 is the superior game - because it does what it does well a lot better than how good DAI is at what it does well.

Subjectively, I prefer DAI - because I'm a sucker for exploration and visual variety when it comes to environments - and I found the character progression a lot more interesting, as well as the combat system more challenging.

The matureness is exactly what I was referring to. I don't think difficulty has anything whatsoever to do with something being mainstream.

JDR13 said:

The matureness is exactly what I was referring to. I don't think difficulty has anything whatsoever to do with something being mainstream.

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I think it has a lot to do with it. The harder the game, the less likely it is to appeal wide.

There's a pretty good reason the mainstream AAA scene has "easy as shit" as the "normal" difficulty setting.

It was never like that back in the day.

I would have thought that extremely obvious, but I guess not

I don't think every mainstream game is like that, but feel free to think so if that's what you really believe.

Oh, I'm pretty sure I'm right about this - but that's very generous of you, thanks!

Every mainstream game is "easy as shit"?

Ok DArt.

It's not as if we expect you to backpeddle or anything.

Oh lord, now we're trying the literal route even though, deep inside, we know DArt has a point

Let's just move on, please. We both know how this ends

Who's "we"? Trying to speak for others isn't going to make your statement seem less silly.

Anyways...

Magnificent!

BTW, does anyone actually know anything about the team behind DA4? I mean, is it still the same one? I seem to recall a few people quitting Bioware recently.