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Default Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Level Design QA Write-up

April 17th, 2021, 19:03
On April 7, Owlcat Games made a stream on level design. It's quite long (2h44'), but forunately ilkarius made a very good illustrated summary with video pointers in their forums.

Thanks Redglyph!

More information.
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April 17th, 2021, 19:41
This game looks great as did the predecessor.
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April 17th, 2021, 20:11
@Pladio What you said about puzzles and camera, check the Q&A starting from "A perfect place to hide some optional secrets"
A perfect place to hide some optional secrets
Apart from the perception mechanics, a rotating camera is very useful as you can hide objects just like in real life. For example, in the Grey Garrison there is one chest that is one chest that is not hidden, not locked, it just rests in a corner. And a certain puzzle in the prologue.
Andrey: If you see a really difficult puzzle in the game, it's not by me. There're some people in our team who really like puzzles.
In the latest beta you'll be able to meet a trap you can't disarm yourself. It's disarmed by a button. You see a line that connects the trap to the button and sometimes it's easy to get to the button… and sometimes it's not.

What is a good amount of secrets to find in a playthrough?
I have an interesting case for Grey Garrison. I've a lot of places where I can hide some things but then I found out the total gold worth calculated for my locations. I've had more places to hide items than good rewards (magic items). So I've had to place some scrolls and some other stuff. I'd like to put more secrets but I have to limit myself due to other design concerns (blame InanKy)

Are you planning to ever add "pixel hunting" secrets, like in old Baldur's Gate games where if you knew where to look you could get freebies
I'm not sure. I don't think it's a good idea. Yulia: I actually like pixel hunting. But no. Not in our game as we like to make everything straightforward. Also it's not possible to make in our game as interactable objects are highlighted.
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April 18th, 2021, 00:22
Originally Posted by Redglyph View Post
@Pladio What you said about puzzles and camera, check the Q&A starting from "A perfect place to hide some optional secrets"
Yeah, unfortunately, I'm also not a fan of those things.
I prefer being dependent on my characters than my own puzzle-solving skills.
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April 18th, 2021, 01:22
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Yeah, unfortunately, I'm also not a fan of those things.
I prefer being dependent on my characters than my own puzzle-solving skills.
I don't mind some puzzles and hard-to-spot secrets too much, but only when not done in an obnoxious way. I agree that in general it doesn't make sense to be forced into playing a hidden object game when you're pretty sure you purchased a RPG. Having to hover my house over every pixel in the screen and walk through every pixel of the map to force repeated perception checks on my characters is just unfun , dull and tedious and whoever thinks that is an attractive mechanic has no business in the entertainment industry.

It is funny because when you roleplay a very strong character, you are not expected to be buff and 'roided up in real life to allow your character to push a huge boulder down a hill, but in the flipside, seems that even if you're playing a high intelligence character, sometimes you're expected to actually do mental gymnastics to the point of getting migraines to come up with the solution to arbitrary riddles/secret doors that my superintelligent/observant character should be able to deal with without my help, the same way I wasn't requested by the game to do some pushups before my strength based character pushed the boulder down the hill.
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April 18th, 2021, 01:29
Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
I don't mind some puzzles and hard-to-spot secrets too much, but only when not done in an obnoxious way. I agree that in general it doesn't make sense to be forced into playing a hidden object game when you're pretty sure you purchased a RPG. Having to hover my house over every pixel in the screen and walk through every pixel of the map to force repeated perception checks on my characters is just unfun , dull and tedious and whoever thinks that is an attractive mechanic has no business in the entertainment industry.

It is funny because when you roleplay a very strong character, you are not expected to be buff and 'roided up in real life to allow your character to push a huge boulder down a hill, but in the flipside, seems that even if you're playing a high intelligence character, sometimes you're expected to actually do mental gymnastics to the point of getting migraines to come up with the solution to arbitrary riddles/secret doors that my superintelligent/observant character should be able to deal with without my help, the same way I wasn't requested by the game to do some pushups before my strength based character pushed the boulder down the hill.
Haha, couldn't have put it better myself.
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April 18th, 2021, 02:01
Thanks for the summary as I hate watching 2 hr long twitch streams.
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April 18th, 2021, 10:39
Originally Posted by Pladio View Post
Yeah, unfortunately, I'm also not a fan of those things.
I prefer being dependent on my characters than my own puzzle-solving skills.
I also pointed it out because they mentioned the puzzle you reminded us in the other "camera" thread

Originally Posted by Nereida View Post
I agree that in general it doesn't make sense to be forced into playing a hidden object game when you're pretty sure you purchased a RPG.
I agree with you both, I think that pixel hunting doesn't belong in RPG games, the character has a perception skill for a reason. It could be fun in some games, but here there's enough other complex things to do and we are entitled some higher level of interaction. I never saw pixel hunting in this game, at worst there's the highlight key and the little chime clue.

Yeah, doing overly complicated puzzles may rebuke players. There are only a few puzzles of average level - not sure if others who played agree with me? For example the type where you have to combine several movements to rearrange a sequence in the correct order (one of those irritated me a bit but I was lucky), codes with easy clues on a wall not too far away, or a few combined levers that you have to understand with the help of inconspicuous clues. So yeah, maybe I lied and sometimes you have to rotate the camera a bit, when you realize there's a clue you need to see

If I had to give main keywords on 100+ hours of gameplay: story, companions, combat. Puzzles were not significant.
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April 18th, 2021, 11:06
To me those examples are fine. Like the puzzle in PoE2 where there are six tiles in the floor with six symbols, and there is a plaque the reads "only the brave, reckless and fortunate may pass" and then through the dungeon you find the symbols belong to gods dubbed as the brave, the reckless and the fortunate. I'm fine with that because it rewards exploration, and the fact that you're actually playing the game, not skipping/rushing through it.

I'm sure Pathfinder;WotR will be fine, and it does have the feature that highlights lootables and secrets, which helps a lot.
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