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August 6th, 2019, 10:58
Just made quick run through the list and I like it. I probably would push Witcher 3 lower in the list, but no list is perfect for everybody. This one at least looks very decent, compared to 99.99% of best RPG lists out there.

But having cRPG Book on shelf, maybe we dont need these lists anymore? :-)
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August 6th, 2019, 11:04
Everyone would push something lower, how come noone would push Neo Scavenger higher like on #1 spot?
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August 6th, 2019, 11:07
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
And Age of Decadence…get the hell out of here. I know there's a Codex bias for that one, but c'mon.
Not a Codexer and not saying it should be at that specific spot on the list, but I really enjoyed AoD. The setting is very refreshing and I thought the combat system was really well done.
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August 6th, 2019, 11:07
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
Of course I'm biased to like the games I like. It would be weird if I wasn't. But the bias I'm talking about with AoD is a different kind of bias, borne of being made by a member of that forum and a comfortable occupant of their echo chamber. There's no way that objectively that game is anywhere near that good.

As far as Kingmaker goes, I can only surmise that it was enough for you that Kingmaker is stylistically the sort of game BG2 is because qualitatively, it's vastly inferior. Some of that is opinion (like the writing), but some of it is objective appraisal… Kingmaker is like playing with a vindictive GM on crack cocaine with all its bugs and balance issues.

I agree with your last statement, of course, and I agree that that's the best use of such a list. I've played all the golden oldies, but I check lists like this to see if there's some degree of consensus on some semi-recent indie's that might have slipped under my radar or that I passed on upon first glance.

While being great fan of BG2 I have to disagree with your view of Kingmaker. There were many technical problems upon release, but as per my opinion, it is best party-based-isometric-cRPG since BG2. And I enjoyed my first playthrough at least as much I enjoyed BG2 at the old days. And thank you Owlcat! As I thought that is not possible anymore.
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August 6th, 2019, 12:16
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
Of course I'm biased to like the games I like. It would be weird if I wasn't. But the bias I'm talking about with AoD is a different kind of bias, borne of being made by a member of that forum and a comfortable occupant of their echo chamber. There's no way that objectively that game is anywhere near that good.
I agree Age of Decadence shouldn't be #11 but only for one reason: it was too short. I'd probably slot it around #30 or so. If it had been what I'd call a "full, epic-length RPG" I'd be fine with it being #11. Yep, it was that good.

Originally Posted by Pongo View Post
I'm surprised Shadowrun Dragonfall did so well, beating both of the Original Sin games. Was it really that good? I played the first one and found it ok but a bit underwhelming.
Hadn't noticed that until you mentioned it. Now that's seriously nutty. But yeah, Dragonfall is indeed a lot better than the first (and third).

Originally Posted by Pongo View Post
Tyranny should be higher. And no Skyrim? I know Bethesda aren't flavour of the month, bit I'm surprised it doesn't make a top 100 (and that Oblivion does!).
Oblivion appearing on the list at all is probably its biggest single fault.

Overall, though, great list. It reminded me that I still need to play a couple things.
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August 6th, 2019, 13:31
In my opinion Shadowrun Dragonfall is overall a much better game than D:OS. It does not have "open world" and ability to mix stuff but it does atmosphere, quests and companions much better.
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August 6th, 2019, 13:55
The voice of dissent has arrived! Behold my scathing assault and prepare your loved ones for lamentation.

Like most forum lists it mostly expresses the bias of the site rather than provide much in the way of interesting revelation.

The Codex's biases are predominantly:

Created as a Black Isle/Troika Fansite: all of BI/T's PC games except Lionhart find a decent placing, 10 in all, making 10% of the entire list, with six of them in the top 10, in the 1-6 position no less. (BG and BGII were published by BI even though they were developed by Bioware).

The legacy of that was mostly a strong sense of fandom for Chris Avellone, and so the site's bias followed him to Obsidian: so 7 out of 9 of Obsidian's games are on the list, most in the top 50 with one taking the number 7 slot, which is, surprise, surprise, their Fallout game.

The rest of the top 10 is then filled out by three other classics of the turn of the millenium, the time when their site was created. The top 10 is essentially a time capsule of 1997 to 2004 with an addition of a later Fallout nostalgia seqeul.

Then there are the developers who are, essentially, codexers, effectively the in-house studios: of which five games are there because that's where their primary fanbase is and the developers contributes regularly. Of which two are in the top 20, one at the number 11 spot.

Avellone games not associated with Obsidian then adds another 4 games to the list, starting with the earliest at number 13.

Already, just by using this very small selection of developer bias criteria we've taken up 26 slots on the list, just over a quarter of all listings, and the vast bulk of the top 25.

The only games in the top 25 that do not adhere to developer bias nor nostalgia for 1997-2004 are:

Dark Souls @ 12
Witcher 3 Wild Hunt @ 15
Betrayal at Krondor @ 25

It's only really after no.25 that the list starts to get at all interesting from a "maybe I'll see something I wasn't fully aware of either from the old days or more recent releases", and from that point on all the scores are so small and similar that it's essentially a crap shoot as to what makes the list and what doesn't. It's as useless as it is useful in it's resulting omissions and inclusions. You'd probably have just as much luck finding an interesting game randomly browsing any given storefront.

So it's a good list, just as long as you're nostalgic for 1997-2004 and are a big fan of Chris Avellone and his mates, old and new, and are a dedicated codex member, which, when you really think about it, leaves out quite a huge portion of cRPG goodness.
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August 6th, 2019, 14:10
While I agree with your assessment of the bias of the Codex @lackblogger, I must say it suits my own tastes quite perfectly. Not because feelings of tenderness towards Chris Avellone, but definitely because of feelings of tenderness towards games released in the time period you mentioned. And no, I'm old enough to have played games before that period.

Out of curiosity, could you mention a few titles you personally think should have made the lists top 20 rather than the ones who did?
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August 6th, 2019, 14:26
It has Cleve all excited. Still sitting in my backlog, so yet to comment.

Grimoire Hits 22nd Place In 2019 RPGCodex List of 101 Greatest RPGs of All Time
6 AUG @ 10:59AM - GOLDEN ERA GAMES
RPGCodex Poll for 2019 of 101 Greatest RPGs Of All Time[rpgcodex.net]

Only 22nd? I knew I should have fixed that stacking algorithm.

Ranking here[docs.google.com].

Pretty good for an indie.

Note that with the exception of Underrail (which is a fantastic post-apocalyptic game) that every other game on that list higher than Grimoire cost at least a million bucks and had a minimum of a dozen people working full-time on it under real producers. Grimoire is the only game in the top 25 of that list that was mostly written on a laptop during a train commute.

I am currently working on the next update for the game, which will feature a new splash screen (just for the novelty) and numerous small enhancements in addition to the usual tweaks/bug fixes.
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August 6th, 2019, 14:34
Originally Posted by TomRon View Post
While I agree with your assessment of the bias of the Codex @lackblogger, I must say it suits my own tastes quite perfectly. Not because feelings of tenderness towards Chris Avellone, but definitely because of feelings of tenderness towards games released in the time period you mentioned. And no, I'm old enough to have played games before that period.

Out of curiosity, could you mention a few titles you personally think should have made the lists top 20 rather than the ones who did?
Sure:

Any of Vogel's Exile series, either as Exile or as Avernum.
Blackguards
Lord of Xulima (much higher)
The two King's Bounty reboots from Russian devs
Drakensang: RoT much higher
Serpent in the Staglands
Neverwinter Nights (much higher - this time they didn't seperate any of the NWNs from their expansions or modules, so anyone reading it will assume they mean the Origina Campaign for both, which is appallingly bad communication)

Is just a very small taster of the kind of omissions and demotions from someone with my perspective, and this is before you take into consideration all the people who like all of the 'popamole' games that the codex pretends to hate, from Dungeon Siege through Mass Effect to Horizon Zero Dawn. But if you're development studio is based east of western Europe then your popamole is the best thing since sliced bread, of course

And then, of course, there's all the people who love their jRPGs, to which their list pays only the lightest cursory gesture while effectively providing zero evidence of any knowledge or interest in the genre.

And in terms of independent studios generally, the blind eye there is as blind as anyone else's, unless your 'independent gem' is some kind of fallout-clone. Fantasy independent goodness? Non-esistent or forgotten down the list somewhere, from Legends of Grimrock to Eschalon type stuff.

Likewise all the oldies are just a ramshackle non-sensical selection of nods, mostly the stuff that people like Avellone of Sawyer say inspired them or the flavour of the week favorite Ultima or Wizardry or MM game, with most other stuff consigned to the dustbin.
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August 6th, 2019, 14:38
Not sure why I didn't write this in my previous post.

Install all these 101 games on your (or any random) kid's PC. If not possible install top 25. With forementioned Grimoire.

Are they all top 25 RPGs really? I don't think there is a currently living teenager who'd say yes. Not only that, I bet they'd uninstall half if not more of those games without even touching them.

So what's this rpgcodex's top list really?
Geariatrics' top RPGs? Stubborn mules' top RPGs? Troll-o-rama top RPGs?
Dunno, you tell me.
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August 6th, 2019, 14:54
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
Shadowrun doesn't deserve to be anywhere near that high imo. I feel the same way about Age of Decadence, Dark Souls, and Grimoire.



Dark Sun has a great setting, but I recall it being pretty buggy. Never did finish that one.
I think it is mainly the sequel, Wake of the Ravager that is buggy. I don't recall any major issues in Shattered Lands, which is easily one of my all time favorite CRPGs. I started playing it recently and found it still holds up pretty well.

My only real complaint with Shattered Lands is the D&D edition it's based (2nd?) doesn't make for as many interesting choices when you build / level up your characters as later editions with feats, skills, domain powers, etc. But still I'd say it's probably my favorite D&D game even though I enjoy the combat & character building in ToEE a lot more.
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August 6th, 2019, 14:58
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I can vouch for Dragonfall being much better than the first game. I loved it, but as an overall game it's still a bit too lacking in exploration, encounter variety and things like that to rank it partcularly high on an all-time list, but if you thought the first was okay, I encourage you to play Dragonfall. I think you'd be happy with it.
I am also happy to see Dragonfall in the top - it is such an underrated crpg that I highly recommend. It is not as vast as other isometric games with significant exploration, but well written, focused, atmospheric, full of choices and consequences and replayable. The dark tone also was attractive for me.
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August 6th, 2019, 16:10
Originally Posted by lackblogger View Post
Sure:

Any of Vogel's Exile series, either as Exile or as Avernum.
Blackguards
Lord of Xulima (much higher)
The two King's Bounty reboots from Russian devs
Drakensang: RoT much higher
Serpent in the Staglands
Neverwinter Nights (much higher - this time they didn't seperate any of the NWNs from their expansions or modules, so anyone reading it will assume they mean the Origina Campaign for both, which is appallingly bad communication)
Thanks! I agree on NWN, especially NWN2 actually, which (including expansions) I really like. I also love the Kings Bounty series, but tend to think of them more as Strategy games than RPG's, although I agree they certainly classify as RPG's as well. Didn't like Drakesang nor Blackguards enough to warrant placing them high on my personal list, but I can see why someone else would.
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August 6th, 2019, 16:13
I put King's Bounty in same group as HOMM games and they are not RPGs.
I would never vote for them when looking for best RPG. Just like I didn't vote for Jagged Alliance 2 although many others did and it got high in this top 101.

Probably also a reason why it didn't get higher and why games like King's Bounty or HOMM are not in the list. Many Codexers don't care to vote for strategy games in their RPG voting.
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August 6th, 2019, 16:17
Originally Posted by joxer View Post
Not sure why I didn't write this in my previous post.

Install all these 101 games on your (or any random) kid's PC. If not possible install top 25. With forementioned Grimoire.

Are they all top 25 RPGs really? I don't think there is a currently living teenager who'd say yes. Not only that, I bet they'd uninstall half if not more of those games without even touching them.

So what's this rpgcodex's top list really?
Geariatrics' top RPGs? Stubborn mules' top RPGs? Troll-o-rama top RPGs?
Dunno, you tell me.
It is a list of best 101 RPGs as voted by older population of gamers that don't enjoy modern action games (sometimes peddled as RPG) that come out today.

It is also a useful list for those teens that would uninstall half of them. They will still try other half and be richer for it then just playing another Borderlands X or Fallout 4 shit.
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August 6th, 2019, 16:25
Originally Posted by Zloth View Post
Witcher 3 > Witcher 1 > Witcher 2. List is legit.

Wait a sec - not one Final Fantasy but Trails in the Sky and Sengoku Rance are on the list!?
I haven't played Sengoku Race, but Trails in the Sky is in my opinion better than any FF game I've played.
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August 6th, 2019, 17:07
Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
I put King's Bounty in same group as HOMM games and they are not RPGs.
I would never vote for them when looking for best RPG. Just like I didn't vote for Jagged Alliance 2 although many others did and it got high in this top 101.

Probably also a reason why it didn't get higher and why games like King's Bounty or HOMM are not in the list. Many Codexers don't care to vote for strategy games in their RPG voting.
And yet King of Dragon Pass sits there quite happily when it's almost entirely a strategy game and barely even hybrid. Which is the point, blind bias.
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August 6th, 2019, 17:10
Originally Posted by Archangel View Post
It is a list of best 101 RPGs as voted by older population of gamers that don't enjoy modern action games (sometimes peddled as RPG) that come out today.

It is also a useful list for those teens that would uninstall half of them. They will still try other half and be richer for it then just playing another Borderlands X or Fallout 4 shit.
You mean like Dark Souls, Witcher 3 or ELEX… which are all happily well placed.

And that reminds me about how Diablo clones are also notoriously absent, and yet Diablo gets a pass, probably because it's 1996.
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August 6th, 2019, 17:17
I'm struggling to see any Banner Saga placed, and yet that game has quality combat, quality story and no end the thing the codex likes so much, that of branching story described as narrtive choice and consequence. What a shame it was just quality made by the wrong people. Harrumph harrumpf harrumpf.
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