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October 17th, 2019, 20:40
Originally Posted by lostforever View Post
*Snip*
To a self-admitted fanboy, I'm sure all those things seem true.

I'm glad you enjoyed it as much as you did though. It definitely has the best melee combat around. No doubt about that at least.
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October 17th, 2019, 23:43
Well, Might and Magic has never given RPS a dime, so of course they're not on the list. I wish I could play Dark Souls, but pretty sure it's a QTE game where timing is mandatory and a 55 year old diabetic probably isn't going to have the reflexes to enjoy it. Is there a super easy mode mod?
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October 18th, 2019, 00:13
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
Is there a super easy mode mod?
Yes. It's called YouTube.
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October 18th, 2019, 00:33
Dark Souls (the series) isn't just an RPG, it's one of the only RPGs released by a Japanese game studio that has been worth a damn in many years. It wouldn't be my #1, but it would certainly be included well within my top 50.
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October 18th, 2019, 00:35
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
Well, Might and Magic has never given RPS a dime, so of course they're not on the list. I wish I could play Dark Souls, but pretty sure it's a QTE game where timing is mandatory and a 55 year old diabetic probably isn't going to have the reflexes to enjoy it. Is there a super easy mode mod?
In case your question isn't just snarky trolling, Dark Souls doesn't require reflexes so much as patience and observation. And it's not in any way made up of scripted quick time sequences.

The Might and Magic games sucked. They sucked compared to their contemporaries, and they suck even more now.
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October 18th, 2019, 09:10
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
In case your question isn't just snarky trolling, Dark Souls doesn't require reflexes so much as patience and observation. And it's not in any way made up of scripted quick time sequences.

The Might and Magic games sucked. They sucked compared to their contemporaries, and they suck even more now.
Several of the Might and Magic games have higher review scores and higher user metacritic scores than Dark Souls. Also, they are generally held in much higher regard here than DS. You might be on the wrong forums, maybe RPS is more your cup of tea.

I have played DS and yes, most builds do require reflexes i.e. timing. To say otherwise is to show that either you have only played those builds that don't require timing or you are outright lying.
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October 18th, 2019, 09:51
Perhaps but i think we are comparing apple and oranges. Anyway I'm not sure what the author thinks of the game but most of the better M&M probably didn't qualify due to the reviewer constraints (stated in the article). I.e, they are too old…

Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
Several of the Might and Magic games have higher review scores and higher user metacritic scores than Dark Souls. Also, they are generally held in much higher regard here than DS. You might be on the wrong forums, maybe RPS is more your cup of tea.

I have played DS and yes, most builds do require reflexes i.e. timing. To say otherwise is to show that either you have only played those builds that don't require timing or you are outright lying.
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October 18th, 2019, 11:23
Originally Posted by crpgnut View Post
I wish I could play Dark Souls, but pretty sure it's a QTE game where timing is mandatory and a 55 year old diabetic probably isn't going to have the reflexes to enjoy it. Is there a super easy mode mod?
As @JFarrell71 mentions above, its not really QTE but the boss's pattern which takes time. Its more like choreographed dance. However quick reflex definitely helps and to be frank I don't have quick reflex. Sometimes it takes me 3 to 4 hours learning bosses at the start of the game and its more like 2 hours for the bosses at the end. Mechanics wise, bosses at the end are harder but you as player and not just your character, have leveled up by the time you face harder bosses so they don't take as long as earlier bosses.

And yes DS has a "easy mode" but this requires letting other people into your game and get them to kill bosses with you.

The other easy mode is some classes and build are lot easier than others. The default Knight class is easy as you can block bosses rather than dodge. They feel like proper tanks.

The other easy more is you can grind and level up and this means you can be higher level than bosses which also helps. This still won't be walk in the park like other games where you level up but you will have more hp, armour etc this will mean you can make more mistakes and still win. THis is the beauty of the game, there are people who can clear the whole game as just level 1.

Although I love Dark souls games, I would not play games like them all the time! They can really stressful but the rewards are so great if stick with them. You will never experience a "high" feeling like killing boss in any other game. A game like DS once every 6 months is enough for me!
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October 18th, 2019, 11:33
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
Several of the Might and Magic games have higher review scores and higher user metacritic scores than Dark Souls. Also, they are generally held in much higher regard here than DS. You might be on the wrong forums, maybe RPS is more your cup of tea.

I have played DS and yes, most builds do require reflexes i.e. timing. To say otherwise is to show that either you have only played those builds that don't require timing or you are outright lying.
DS need reflexes but patience and observation are far more important. There are two ways to play DS. Bosses have a pattern and they also telegraphs the attacks. If you learn the pattern, you know exactly whats coming next so timing here is not important. If you haven't learnt the pattern then you are going by what the boss is telegraphing and now you have short time to react so this is where reflex matter. Thats why people say patience is more important.

Yes there are builds and classes that doesn't need much timing but I see that as huge positive of the game that it allows wide variety of play styles. My reflex in general sucks so I mostly play as shield using Knight or "Dark Blade" spamming Knight (!) but I don't see anything wrong with that.
Last edited by lostforever; October 18th, 2019 at 13:06.
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October 18th, 2019, 12:49
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
In case your question isn't just snarky trolling, Dark Souls doesn't require reflexes so much as patience and observation.
Lost cause. Anything that requires anticipation is reflex based for reactive players.

No matter how long a blow is dialed, no matter how much time is given to place an anticipated input, it will always be about reflexes for reactive players.

DS is not a hard game, everything is dialed ages in advance and response times are long.

When patterns are not noticed and unlearned, when repeated attacks are always as surprising as the first time witnessed, it always will be about reflexes.
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October 18th, 2019, 19:42
I would like to read more on the topic of Dark Souls being an RPG from non-biased sources. Otherwise I have to take it with a grain of salt every time.

It doesn't have so much of a story as it does have bits of lore sprinkled around from NPCs that the player has to piece together to understand, most of it done through optional dialogue.

The game does have classes - classes that can all achieve the same build or loadout, effectively nullifying their "class".

NPCs exist, but outside of dialogue and isolated instances of interaction, don't impact the player in any way. They act as static AI that can be interacted with, but are not required to in order the advance the game, aside from a very select few.

Also, there's no party system.

Though, I think if that's how we define RPGs these days, then I think we need to do away with the RPG label entirely and come up with something else.
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October 18th, 2019, 22:00
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
Several of the Might and Magic games have higher review scores and higher user metacritic scores than Dark Souls. Also, they are generally held in much higher regard here than DS. You might be on the wrong forums, maybe RPS is more your cup of tea.

I have played DS and yes, most builds do require reflexes i.e. timing. To say otherwise is to show that either you have only played those builds that don't require timing or you are outright lying.
I could give a rat's ass what the review scores for Might and Magic games are. Those I played (at least four of them) weren't particularly good. Being old doesn't automatically equal being a great game, though you wouldn't know that from a lot of RPG fans. I do like RPS, actually. But RPGs are my favorite genre of game, and I've played hundreds of them. So, I'll stick around.

ChienAboyeur gets at this in their reply to me: timing and reflexes aren't the same thing. Yes, Dark Souls requires timing. But if you exercise the observational skills and patience that I mentioned in my post, good reflexes don't play nearly as much of a role. If you anticipate instead of react, it's a cerebral game, not a fast twitch muscle game. It's easy to accuse someone of "lying" when you willfully misinterpret what they wrote.
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October 18th, 2019, 22:14
Originally Posted by Ragnaris View Post
I would like to read more on the topic of Dark Souls being an RPG from non-biased sources. Otherwise I have to take it with a grain of salt every time.

It doesn't have so much of a story as it does have bits of lore sprinkled around from NPCs that the player has to piece together to understand, most of it done through optional dialogue.

The game does have classes - classes that can all achieve the same build or loadout, effectively nullifying their "class".

NPCs exist, but outside of dialogue and isolated instances of interaction, don't impact the player in any way. They act as static AI that can be interacted with, but are not required to in order the advance the game, aside from a very select few.

Also, there's no party system.

Though, I think if that's how we define RPGs these days, then I think we need to do away with the RPG label entirely and come up with something else.
Based on my replies, I'm sure you'll considered me a biased source. But I'll answer anway.

No, there isn't a ton of plot. There is *a* story, but it's mostly in the background, and can be ignored if the player desires. What the game does very well imo is create a sense of place, with a history and an internal logic, through its item descriptions, NPC dialogue, and the occassional cutscene. I wouldn't want every RPG I play to lack a plot, but overall I value world building more. I mean, there's a reason why there are so many Morrowind fans who have never finished the main plot; it's not the main draw. Morrowind is as vivid and unique a world that has been created in RPGs. Lordran and the other Dark Souls worlds are right up there. They're like nothing else.

No, there are no classes. Yeah, you pick one at the start, but that just reshuffles your attributes a bit and determine your starting gear. The stand-in for classes in Dark Souls is the gear itself. The way you play Dark Souls can vary widely depending on what weapons you use, the magic you use (or not), and how you defend.

You have a lot of disclaimers in your NPC paragraph. "They don't impact the player…except when they do. They aren't required to advance the game… except when they are." But in general, I agree with you: they're not critical to simply playing and finishing the game. Despite that, DS NPCs are among my favorites, simply because there's a strong feeling that they exist in the world, and have existed, quite independently of your existence. I like their dialogue too. It walks the line between mystery and answers quite well. Just a personal opinion.

There's no party system. Um, yeah…. lots of RPGs don't have party systems. Heck, a lot of hardcore RPG folks like to try to solo even games with party systems. I don't see how this has any relevance.
Last edited by JFarrell71; October 18th, 2019 at 23:50.
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October 18th, 2019, 22:20
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I could give a rat's ass what the review scores for Might and Magic games are. Those I played (at least four of them) weren't particularly good. Being old doesn't automatically equal being a great game, though you wouldn't know that from a lot of RPG fans. I do like RPS, actually. But RPGs are my favorite genre of game, and I've played hundreds of them. So, I'll stick around.

ChienAboyeur gets at this in their reply to me: timing and reflexes aren't the same thing. Yes, Dark Souls requires timing. But if you exercise the observational skills and patience that I mentioned in my post, good reflexes don't play nearly as much of a role. If you anticipate instead of react, it's a cerebral game, not a fast twitch muscle game. It's easy to accuse someone of "lying" when you willfully misinterpret what they wrote.
Quoting Chien That's going to help your cause!!! Thanks for agreeing, good reflexes do play a role. First you said " Dark Souls doesn't require reflexes" now you say "good reflexes don't play nearly as much of a role" - just change the goal posts, a sure way to win any argument

Anyway all I am going to say is:

The Dark Souls games sucked. They sucked compared to their contemporaries, and they suck even more now.
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October 18th, 2019, 22:59
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
Quoting Chien That's going to help your cause!!! Thanks for agreeing, good reflexes do play a role. First you said " Dark Souls doesn't require reflexes" now you say "good reflexes don't play nearly as much of a role" - just change the goal posts, a sure way to win any argument .
"Dark Souls doesn't require reflexes so much as patience and observation."

That's what I wrote. It's still up there. You can rephrase it for your purposes all you want, it'll continue to be there. You're probably accusing me of moving goal posts since that is what you're doing. The whole "I think X really means Y, so I'll say they wrote Y and react to that instead" nonsense.
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October 18th, 2019, 23:30
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
"Dark Souls doesn't require reflexes so much as patience and observation."
None of that changes the fact that the Dark Souls games suck.
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October 18th, 2019, 23:49
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
None of that changes the fact that the Dark Souls games suck.
I'll bet you owned the playground. Too bad your reasoning skills haven't progressed since those halcyon days of 2nd grade.
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October 19th, 2019, 00:03
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
I'll bet you owned the playground. Too bad your reasoning skills haven't progressed since those halcyon days of 2nd grade.
Yes that is a shame. Case in point:

Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
The Might and Magic games sucked. They sucked compared to their contemporaries, and they suck even more now.
edit: If you haven't realized yet, I have intentionally stooped to your level and I'm not interested in putting up any kind of rational argument.
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October 19th, 2019, 00:27
Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
You have a lot of disclaimers in your NPC paragraph. "They don't impact the player…except when they do. They aren't required to advance the game… except when they are."
My point being that the series uses them in a very limited manner. I place emphasis on the idea that they are used very lightly, and that's a very plain-as-day design choice.

Originally Posted by JFarrell71 View Post
There's no party system. Um, yeah…. lots of RPGs don't have party systems. Heck, a lot of hardcore RPG folks like to try to solo even games with party systems. I don't see how this has any relevance.
I never said they were required, mind you. However, party members often act as catalysts to a game's story, or at the very least contain character background that can open up to something more, such as side quests. You manage their gear, their approaches toward battle, etc.

While I recognize it has a lot of aspects similar to established RPGs, in my eyes it's more of an RPGLite than anything else. More than that, though, I'd say it shares greater similarities with action/adventure. I tend to define and/or label games based on what they excel best at. I think Dark Souls as a series has superb level design and action oriented gameplay. You're incentivized to explore a lot. Encounters are often quick, providing balance between exploration and action.

But I think it tells a story very poorly (and to the average first timer, not at all). It's telling when a game that's a decade old has fans that still debate whether there is a clear narrative. Most first times (myself included) weren't even aware the game had side quests. To add to this, "classes" (or origins, I forget the name) don't place limitations on the player, as any background can allow you to achieve anything. In this context, you have no defined role. In fact, character origins or backgrounds don't offer their own choices and consequences - anyone can wield any weapon or cast any spell with enough play time.

If you want to get technical though, any game can fit into the label of role playing, because playing the game is playing the role of you, the character you control.

The game is deliberately limiting in dialogue and character interaction, which is done to place greater focus on gameplay and moment-to-moment encounters. This is by no means a bad thing, but the player primarily spends time fending off creatures and exploring linear paths (sometimes with alternate routes). The average player will spend much less time engaging with NPCs, allocating attribute points, or understanding the narrative.

I don't put much faith into the RPG designation for a game these days though, as it's often used as a marketing tool rather than a category to fit under. Plenty of Dark Souls clones out there aren't seen as RPGs because they were never marketed as such, even if they have the same foundation.
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October 19th, 2019, 13:29
Originally Posted by bjon045 View Post
Quoting Chien That's going to help your cause!!!
Moreover when the first words in the message signals a lost cause.

There is no cause to help, it is settled in advance.

As long as players claiming that it is about reflexes do not acknowledge themselves as a public threat since driving (that does require reflexes contrary to DS) involves timing in action in a much less controlled environment, there is no cause to be helped.

The speech wanting to be convinced of this or that must be taken to devs, they are the ones who chase the buck. Not to players who can play a product without requiring it to be changed.
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