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June 9th, 2019, 20:23
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
Nope, I am not. Was an honest question.
Than I'll just assume you have a very different take on exploration than the rest of us.
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June 9th, 2019, 20:28
Maybe. But can you describe what you see as the exploration part? And how it differs from the exploration part in Wolfenstein3D. I'd almost exclude Doom here as doom has more diversity in "uniquely" designed rooms and such, which grimrock 1 hasn't.
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June 9th, 2019, 20:37
That's like asking why water is wet and then trying to argue that it's really not. What part of exploring the dungeon didn't seem like exploration to you?
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June 9th, 2019, 21:11
Originally Posted by JDR13 View Post
That's like asking why water is wet and then trying to argue that it's really not. What part of exploring the dungeon didn't seem like exploration to you?
I'd say the contrary. I see an empty cup, and you arguing that it tastes wonderful.
I can tell you everything which is not in this cup. I am trying to grasp what it is which you actually think is wonderful, but it feels like your argument is "don't you taste it? It's wonderful!".

I don't see any exploration in Grimrock besides of puzzles (if you consider this exploration) and secret passages compared to a linear shooter with hardly any variations (such as Wolfenstein 3D, Corridor 7, which both were great games btw).

So for the sake of it, let's put a table together with a couple of games, and look at different aspects of exploration:


One thing to add maybe is comments about the surrounding by the party/character. If I don't remember it incorrectly Grimrock doesnt have it, neither Wolf3D, and the others have it. But might be wrong there.

So…what am I missing?
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June 9th, 2019, 21:52
You're in a large 3D maze with a first-person view, and you can only see in a straight line in front of you. You can't see around corners or through walls, and you have no idea what's in the areas you can't see until you actually reach them and discover for yourself what's there. The only way to get thought the maze it to traverse the various corridors and rooms until you've uncovered the things you need to advance.

That *is* exploring. I wouldn't say LoG has the best kind of exploration, but that's beside the point. You're objectively exploring by any definition of the word.

It's literally that simple. If you finished the game then you did quite a bit of exploring. No amount of semantics is going to change that.
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June 9th, 2019, 23:22
And this exactly is why I compared it to Wolfenstein 3D which is pretty much exploring on the same level. It fits perfectly to your description.

You could even go so far and say that almost every game as this minimum of exploration.
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June 9th, 2019, 23:27
Whatever. You were originally claiming it didn't have exploration. Whether or not it's similar in some ways to another game is irrelevant.
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June 9th, 2019, 23:37
I stand by it. And I did say that Grimrock wasnt an Exploration game, and you claimed that "Exploration was definitely a significant aspect in LoG. Even more so in LoG 2."

Now we found that it has the bare minimum of exploration, which can be found in pretty much every game which isn't Pong or Chess. Which means that Wolfenstein 3D is an RPG, because you are playing a role.

Yes, Grimrock has exploration, Wolfenstein 3D has roleplaying aspects, Doom has tactics as you need to think about which weapon to use against which enemy and as you need to manage your ammo it also as aspects of a management simulation, simulation as in you are simulating an alien invasion on mars/phobos.
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June 9th, 2019, 23:56
Originally Posted by Kordanor View Post
I stand by it. And I did say that Grimrock wasnt an Exploration game, and you claimed that "Exploration was definitely a significant aspect in LoG. Even more so in LoG 2.".
It *is* a significant aspect in LoG. I just described why in an objective fashion, and your only reply, which you keep repeating like a parrot, is that somehow it isn't because Wolfenstein 3D also has exploration.

I don't get why someone would stand by such an obviously nonsensical argument, but good for you for not backing down. Some people enjoy looking obtuse I guess.
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June 10th, 2019, 00:23
Originally Posted by Saxon1974 View Post
Very disappointed to learn this is a puzzle/timer game.

Was really hoping it was an exploration rpg. Liked the grimrock games but this is a pass for me
It is an exploration game, you explore Druidstone Forest…
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June 10th, 2019, 13:01
I would not call LoG an exploration game; nor would I call this an exploration game. However I suppose one might call any game where you move from one spot to another spot an exploration game but I hardly find that very exploratory. I would consider MM-X an exploration game but not the best example. I think bards tale IV a better example of an exploration game. LoG imho is not a very good example of an exploration game. BTW Boston won. Go Boston; not that i really care who wins.
Last edited by you; June 10th, 2019 at 13:16.
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June 10th, 2019, 15:40
How anyone can claim with a straight face that a classical dungeon crawler like Legend of Grimrock isn't an exploration game is beyond me. Unless you're an omniscient clairvoyant who somehow knows what's coming up every corridor and knows every single secret, or someone who cheats by using walkthroughs constantly, you actually have to explore that dungeon to learn about it and the nature of the puzzles within it.

Further, if you'd told a kid when he was playing Dungeon Master for the first time "sorry bud, but you're not exploring when you play this", he'd rightfully look at you as if you were insane. Exploration is simply a vital part of the dungeon crawling experience. The feeling of traversing a level and making it to an entire new area in these games can be very satisfying and indeed, make one want to explore more!

If you want to maintain that point of view, that's fine, but go play the game on oldschool mode where there's no automap feature and come back tell me again if you think there's no exploration in it.

Legend of Grimrock 2 also had wonderful overland outdoor locations which were fantastically dense with content and full of things to discover. You're missing out if you didn't play that one - that was definitely my GotY back in 2014.
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June 10th, 2019, 17:36
I guess if we all agree that the verb "explore" means to reveal things you hadn't known about or seen before, then these are all "exploration" games.

But all you've done then is create a tautology that says nothing. By that definition, Pac Man is an exploration game. After all, you don't magically know the layout of all the levels before you start playing, right?

Regarding Druidstone, it's not a "puzzle" game. I've seen three puzzle levels so far, they're optional, and the reward is quite small. I'm crap at puzzles myself, but the ones in DS are so ludicrously easy even I figured them out in under a minute. Anyone considering a purchase ought to watch a stream of it. I'm sure you'll get the gist very quickly.
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June 10th, 2019, 18:05
Originally Posted by screeg View Post
But all you've done then is create a tautology that says nothing. By that definition, Pac Man is an exploration game. After all, you don't magically know the layout of all the levels before you start playing, right?
That's not a great analogy unfortunately, as it is well known that Pacman has an end (the killscreen) and the maze to that point does not change. You can also see the entirety of the playfield immediately. A kid playing it for the first time might well be exploring the gameplay, yes - figuring out how it works, what the monster behaviours are and how to score well. But that's moving beyond the bounds of the specific type of exploration we're talking about in dungeon crawling.

You can try to reduce what I'm saying with semantics if you want to but I think most people will see the common sense in it.
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June 10th, 2019, 20:23
Originally Posted by Pessimeister View Post
the bounds of the specific type of exploration we're talking about in dungeon crawling.
None of you ever actually talk about what you're talking about though, so this sentence is gibberish.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by exploration? You know, in some kind of actual detail rather than hyperbole?
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June 10th, 2019, 20:35
Didn't he just do that?
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June 10th, 2019, 20:54
Nope.

By his definition Mario is an exploration game because you can't see everything on the level when you start a level.

He said something about a killscreen but that meant nothing to me. Every other sentence was either gibberish or hyperbole.

Just as your reply, for about the 16th time on this topic is just another set of words where you forget to actually elaborate on what you're talking about…
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June 10th, 2019, 21:05
You're a special kind of snowflake.
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June 10th, 2019, 21:55
I can only assume you donate an awful lot of money to the site…
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June 10th, 2019, 22:55
One thing to think about is that something actually becomes an exploration game, if it has the basic "exploration" as JDR13 described it (and while not present in PacMan, it is present in Wolfenstein3D or even it's predecessor Castle Wolfenstein: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJNAXh-LVnk) and a lack of other features.

Think about Wolfenstein3D for example. I don't think lots of people would claim that it's a game about exploration, because killing Nazis is the focus of the game.
But…let's imagine that you remove all the nazis. Or only sprinkle them in a couple of rooms, so that the combat doesnt matter anymore. Now it would become an exploration game. Find your way out of the maze and the keys to unlock the doors. Score points by finding secret passages.

Maybe similar to the so called "Walking Simulators" (even though it's kind of used as a joke description). They are Walking Simulators because you can't do much in them. They are mostly about moving around, with some story (and exploration). If you'd add first person combat, they are suddenly First Person Shooters and the walking…well…you walk in all shooters, right? But a shooter isn't a Walking Simulator as it has other features as well.

Some Walking, Story and Exploration can be found in pretty much every game (exceptions exist).
The one way a game becomes about one of these aspects is when it does focus on it a lot. Skyrim or Dead State focus a lot on exploration for example (well…most Open World Games do).
The other way the game becomes about one of these aspects is when it lacks any significance in other elements. Telltale Games might be a good example which I would hardly call adventure games, because they don't have any puzzle elements which adventures usually have. Tahira is another good example. While they claim it's a RPG, it lacks any RPG elements in my opinion. I'd call it a tactics game (and a good one).

Ofc the thing is, that some Genres are dominated by one mechanic. If you play a poker game, the game will be about a poker mechanic.
If you play sokoban or tetris…well, that's a puzzle game.
But genres like RPGs have many parts of other genres (and now also so many genres have part of traditional RPG mechanics) that it also carries over assumptions.
However just because RPGs traditionally have exploration aspects, and shooters only developed that during the 90s, that doesn't mean that RPGs have to have better "exploration" than shooters or good exploration at all for that matter.
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