Cyberpunk 2077 - Shouldn't be an Open World Game

TheRealFluent said:
I was interested in this game until they decided to cut a lot of the pen and paper stuff that was supposed to be in the game. It's down to 3 classes and they apparently moved completely away from the pen and paper implementation that I was so very interested in. Combined with the fact it will probably have 6 hours of cutscenes means this gets a hard pass from me.
Click to expand...

The classes are nothing more than a starting archtype. Your character will be completely customizable.

As far as pen and paper stuff, I'm guessing anything that was considered redundant (and a lot of PnP skills would be redundant in a game like this) weren't included. The PnP game is based on dice rolls after all.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,393
Location
Florida, US
duerer said:
… Ultima and Zelda:BoW as the two great examples of true open-world gaming.
AFAIK, these are the only open-world games where you cannot really sequence-break.
…
Moreover, these are the two open-world games where side activities are actually fun and unpredictable, thus these games are very much encouraging experimentation.
Click to expand...

JDR13 said:
Interesting opinion, but I don't think too many people share it.

I'm glad that sequence breaking is of such importance to you, but the rest of us value other things as well. Writing, characters, music, presentation, combat, etc. etc.
Click to expand...

I may have not been very clear, so let me elaborate:
To me, open-world gaming is about freedom, which implies sandbox-style experimentation and non-linearity. Sequence breaking is just one path you may take, should you wish to.

If an open-world game offers freedom not just in its gameplay, but even in its storytelling, then… this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship for me.

Witcher 3 and co fail in my book, because …
1.) the gameplay is way too scripted for my taste,
2.) storytelling is on rails (albeit on branching rails, but still)
3.) yet pretend to be offering lots of freedom with a barrage of not-so-great "optional stuff to do".
Hence, these games are not true open-world games in my book, but somewhat overbloated semi-linear games.
Without the bloat (point 3 above), these games would be true classics, instead of being "just" great games.

But, yes, opinions may vary. I'm proudly jaded to the extreme. :cool:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
824
duerer said:
Witcher 3 and co fail in my book, because …
1.) the gameplay is way too scripted for my taste,
2.) storytelling is on rails (albeit on branching rails, but still)
3.) yet pretend to be offering lots of freedom with a barrage of not-so-great "optional stuff to do".
Click to expand...
How could storytelling be open if not by having branches?
(Yes, a sophisticated AI could solve the issue, but we're decades away from that.)
 
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
4,998
Location
Germany
duerer said:
1.) the gameplay is way too scripted for my taste,
2.) storytelling is on rails (albeit on branching rails, but still)
3.) yet pretend to be offering lots of freedom with a barrage of not-so-great "optional stuff to do".
Click to expand...

Morrandir said:
How could storytelling be open if not by having branches?
(Yes, a sophisticated AI could solve the issue, but we're decades away from that.)
Click to expand...

Well, Zelda BoW solved this one rather elegantly.
So no need for a sophisticated AI for that.

All you need is a competent designer / writer with balls to come up with a non-standard solution, which is, ironically, an age-old literary trick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_narrative
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
824
I must have missed this elegant solution in Zelda :)

Maybe it's because I think of compelling storytelling in a very different way.
 
duerer said:
I may have not been very clear, so let me elaborate:
To me, open-world gaming is about freedom, which implies sandbox-style experimentation and non-linearity. Sequence breaking is just one path you may take, should you wish to.

If an open-world game offers freedom not just in its gameplay, but even in its storytelling, then… this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship for me.

Witcher 3 and co fail in my book, because …
1.) the gameplay is way too scripted for my taste,
2.) storytelling is on rails (albeit on branching rails, but still)
3.) yet pretend to be offering lots of freedom with a barrage of not-so-great "optional stuff to do".
Hence, these games are not true open-world games in my book, but somewhat overbloated semi-linear games.
Without the bloat (point 3 above), these games would be true classics, instead of being "just" great games.

But, yes, opinions may vary. I'm proudly jaded to the extreme. :cool:
Click to expand...

There are open-world games and then there are sandboxes. You seem to want a complete sandbox experience, and that's fine, but that's not the same thing as open-world.

You're dismissing games as being lesser because they don't fit into your narrow view of what a good open-world game should be.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,393
Location
Florida, US
He's certainly right about Witcher 3, though.

That said, I wouldn't presume to dictate what a "true" open world is. Witcher 3 definitely qualifies as open world in my book.

Zelda is a great toybox with a lot of trivial activities that are cute and probably meaningful to anyone with a sufficiently active imagination.

That's cool - to each his own.

In terms of story and narrative, however, Witcher 3 is vastly superior to Zelda - but that's just my own personal opinion.

I don't consider either game a great fit for my preferences overall, though.
 
What is he right about?

Other than the story being on rails, which is the case with all games that aren't a true sandbox, everything he says is subjective.

Also, he's not just talking about TW3, he's talking about every game that isn't Ultima 7 or Zelda BotW.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,393
Location
Florida, US
JDR13 said:
What is he right about?

Other than the story being on rails, which is the case with all games that aren't a true sandbox, everything he says is subjective.

Also, he's not just talking about TW3, he's talking about every game that isn't Ultima 7 or Zelda BotW.
Click to expand...

Everything here is subjective.

He's right from my perspective because I subjectively agree with him about the points he made about Witcher 3 - except that I consider it an open world game.

As for your intolerance and struggle to accept that some people enjoy different things - and therefore they must have a narrow point of view, that's not exactly breaking news, is it :)
 
Darth Tagnan said:
Everything here is subjective.

He's right from my perspective because I subjectively agree with him about the points he made about Witcher 3 - except that I consider it an open world game.

As for your intolerance and struggle to accept that some people enjoy different things - and therefore they must have a narrow point of view, that's not exactly breaking news, is it :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, because claiming that Ultima 7 and Zelda are the only true open-world games isn't narrow at all. :)

I should have known better though than to ask and expect anything less than the usual passive-aggressive stance people expect from you.
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,393
Location
Florida, US
No, as I said, there's no surprise involved. Your own insistence on talking on behalf of others when you feel challenged - is just another endearing part of your profound arrogance :)

Doesn't mean you don't have something to contribute, though - and I appreciate it when that happens.
 
How am I talking on behalf of others? Do tell. :)

There's no challenge here, trust me. Just you being your usual sad misanthrope self.

Carry on…
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,393
Location
Florida, US
duerer said:
which implies sandbox-style experimentation and non-linearity.
Click to expand...

Means nothing. Sandbox sent back to a mode where every single option was open. There is no sequence breaking opportunities in sandbox as everything is unlocked from the start.

In BoTW, when a player wants to acquire an item, it is sequential. Linearity is in etc
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
6,265
duerer said:
Well, Zelda BoW solved this one rather elegantly.
So no need for a sophisticated AI for that.

All you need is a competent designer / writer with balls to come up with a non-standard solution, which is, ironically, an age-old literary trick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlinear_narrative
Click to expand...

Darth Tagnan said:
I must have missed this elegant solution in Zelda :)

Maybe it's because I think of compelling storytelling in a very different way.
Click to expand...
Indeed I've missed Zelda. What exactly are they doing?

And yes, the nonlinear narrative is a good "trick". But it only does apply to subplots that according to the story can happen in a chronologial arbitrary order or are presented in a non chronological way. The first is constraining the writer's freedom and might deteriorate the resulting plot. The latter imho is just a very unelegant crotch. (That may be personal taste though.)

Having distinct parallel plotlines is another way of course. However it doesn't tackle the actual problem of having a big plot with depending sublots. It's just some form divide and conquer where you hardly have to merge the results.

As far as I understand (I might be wrong) a cohesive plot must have some subplots with a causal dependency, so they must be presented in a given order and thus we have branching rails.

To be clear I totally understand why storytelling like TW3 doesn't appeal to everyone. I actually share a part of the criticism. I just don't think that you can combine the different demands in a single game.
 
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
4,998
Location
Germany
joxer said:
Because it's not paper, it's not pen and it's not human DM who defines someone's role. It's the player who "lives" it.
Click to expand...

Roles are not defined by a GM, they are defined at world building. The DM only introduces situations so that players can act out of a role and the DM enforces their interpretation.

No worries though, players dislike anything close to roleplaying.
Roleplaying is a world of constraints, limitations, charges, duties etc that prevents players from acting the way they would like.

In a RPG, a player bows down to an emperor, except when he is the emperor himself.
 
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
6,265
I guess you didn't understand what and why was I saying nor you've read the article I called bullshit.
Which is a progress.
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
23,459
Morrandir said:
Indeed I've missed Zelda. What exactly are they doing?
Click to expand...

Well, BotW is what I would consider close to a non-narrative kind of game. That's not to say that there's no story there - it's just presented in an extremely light way - with minimalistic dialogue.

Truth be told, though, I lasted around 25-30 hours until I got tired of the formula - and I don't know if something super story heavy happens at some point.

But, based on the NPCs I encountered - and the events of the game - it's very much a simulated world that's more about what you, as a player, do and how the world responds - than it's about presenting a story in a traditional way.

In that way, the story is as good as your imagination, which is why I think some people prefer that kind of presentation.

Some people have no issue imagining their own story - as long as the world supports and encourages it.

To me, that's not very interesting - and I don't particularly enjoy my own stories. I mean, if I did - I'd sit down and write a lot more :)

But, it's a subjective thing - as most things are.
 
Morrandir said:
Indeed I've missed Zelda. What exactly are they doing?
Click to expand...

Morrandir said:
Indeed I've missed Zelda. What exactly are they doing?
Click to expand...

FYI, Zelda's story is structured in a very different manner than e.g. Witcher 3.
Instead of telling a story in a linear three-act way, Zelda presents a vague lore and an initial mystery at the beginning.

The story is entirely optional and non-linear:
- Flashback story snippets must be found to understand what happened. These snippets can be found in any order, but the storyline only makes its emotional impact once the player has found them all (think of Bio/System Shock's audio logs).
- Major NPCs reveal important past events, fleshing out the lore and and revealing parts of the mystery.
- Minor NPCs comment the player's recent actions, making the game world less static.
- Optional quests further flesh out the lore.

As you can see, there is a story, and it is quite good - but entirely optional and definitely not on autopilot.
If you want a story, it is there, but you must find it.
If you don't care about the story, you may freely ignore it.

Also… before an unnecessary flamewar begins:
I don't say that Zelda's story is better than Witcher 3's. No. I am talking about different storytelling techniques.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
824
I understand.
And I can see the charme but it's not something I prefer. My preference is to experience the story with my character(s) directly. That immerses me most.
I'm quickly bored by audio logs or similar flashbacks. Also I don't like "alternate realities" like the Fade sequences in Dragon Age, the Matrix minigames in Shadowrun or the Land of a Thousand Fables in TW3:B&W.
(And yes, I'm quite aware of the irony that the base world of every game is "alternate reality" itself. ;) )
 
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
4,998
Location
Germany
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom